Should a Propagated coral cost more?
- Thread starter Randy
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JeffReef
Got Zoa Pox?
I just checked this thread and was surprised to find that their poll result is directly opposite of ours.
JeffReef
Got Zoa Pox?
LOL.
Oil pricing is similar to the price of the African blues on ebay. The sellers know that they control the supply to a large demand so they can afford to set a steep price and still make the sale. :( <--- Sad face only implies that I cannot afford the African Zoos and not a disappointment on ebay's seller prices. Disappointment on oil pricing, however, is another story.
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JeffReef
Got Zoa Pox?
Biased on which side? Please elaborate. :D I'm sure we can understand where you're comming from.
JeffReef
Got Zoa Pox?
Perhaps most of those guys are would-be-Buyers. :D
bryan
Active Member
I think biased was the wrong use of the word Jeff, my bad. I should have said passionate. Passionate for propagation, irregardless of monetary costs.
Jeremy, I'll give this some thought over the weekend and try to make notes so I can post it with some form of order.
I'll leave ya for the night with the old coral farmer joke about what is the easiest way to make a million bucks doing this....simply start with two million :D
Peace guys, Bryan
Jeremy, I'll give this some thought over the weekend and try to make notes so I can post it with some form of order.
I'll leave ya for the night with the old coral farmer joke about what is the easiest way to make a million bucks doing this....simply start with two million :D
Peace guys, Bryan
Well i think i should have voted yes. Again though you shouldnt charge an arm and leg just for the same coral. It does take time and effort to get things to grow and prop them but AGAIN no arms and legs charged please. :)
Steve
Steve
"I'm not really talking about what makes more, but just the overhead involved which one costs more to operate."
I can answer this question.......
The propped coral will always cost more to operate, it will never be cheaper then a coral that gets shipped from the wholesaler and sold. The propped coral will use resources that the wild colony will never use. The reason it cost more is that it stays around longer, as long as it is healthy. It will pay the initial cost( the money to acquire the wild colony) off as soon as a few frags are sold. After that it will be overhead that it will then have to pay off, such as salt for water changes, electricity, rent for facility or home whatever, don't forget your time as that has a cost in it as well.
The longer something sits in your tank and does not generate any income the more it cost you. Just like those drab zoanthids that nobody buys, they actually cost a person more in the long run as they use up resources. But in these cases they have to be discounted as the space they take up cost you as well, cause they are taking up space that can be used for either A. A faster selling coral or B. A better morph for propagation that will lead to more income from a higher demand for the polyps.
To actually do nothing but propagation is very costly as it is much more resource intensive then some thing that is bought and sold within a weeks time. The coral you sell within that week cost you little as far as overhead, but the price of it will include a certain amount of overhead. This is why when the first captive bred fish were hitting the market they cost so much more. Plus there wasn't as big a demand for them. The cost was actually prohibitive towards sales because at that time the hobbyist were not a conscientious about captive breeding. Why pay more then 2x the amount for the same fish I can pay less for. But once they realized that the life expectancy of captive raised fish was A. longer, B. More adapted to captive life, C. The death rate was dramatically less they started to take off. As well as the hobbyist began to realize the importance of captive propagation to the hobby and the reefs it became more viable. The same thing is now happening with more and more corals. This will in the end drive down the price as I can sell more captive raised fish and corals and the volume of sales can under cut the price that was once asked per captive coral or fish because it can now be spread out to ore specimens then just the few that were being sold in the beginning......
The trend in the beginning really killed a bunch of captive farms because the hobbyist were not ready for it yet. But times have changed and I think the profitability of captive raised coral and fish have yet to be seen. In the near future it will be a very viable option instead of actually ordering wild colonies and fish. I think also eventually the only reason for wild caught will be to gain new specimens for propagation.
I can answer this question.......
The propped coral will always cost more to operate, it will never be cheaper then a coral that gets shipped from the wholesaler and sold. The propped coral will use resources that the wild colony will never use. The reason it cost more is that it stays around longer, as long as it is healthy. It will pay the initial cost( the money to acquire the wild colony) off as soon as a few frags are sold. After that it will be overhead that it will then have to pay off, such as salt for water changes, electricity, rent for facility or home whatever, don't forget your time as that has a cost in it as well.
The longer something sits in your tank and does not generate any income the more it cost you. Just like those drab zoanthids that nobody buys, they actually cost a person more in the long run as they use up resources. But in these cases they have to be discounted as the space they take up cost you as well, cause they are taking up space that can be used for either A. A faster selling coral or B. A better morph for propagation that will lead to more income from a higher demand for the polyps.
To actually do nothing but propagation is very costly as it is much more resource intensive then some thing that is bought and sold within a weeks time. The coral you sell within that week cost you little as far as overhead, but the price of it will include a certain amount of overhead. This is why when the first captive bred fish were hitting the market they cost so much more. Plus there wasn't as big a demand for them. The cost was actually prohibitive towards sales because at that time the hobbyist were not a conscientious about captive breeding. Why pay more then 2x the amount for the same fish I can pay less for. But once they realized that the life expectancy of captive raised fish was A. longer, B. More adapted to captive life, C. The death rate was dramatically less they started to take off. As well as the hobbyist began to realize the importance of captive propagation to the hobby and the reefs it became more viable. The same thing is now happening with more and more corals. This will in the end drive down the price as I can sell more captive raised fish and corals and the volume of sales can under cut the price that was once asked per captive coral or fish because it can now be spread out to ore specimens then just the few that were being sold in the beginning......
The trend in the beginning really killed a bunch of captive farms because the hobbyist were not ready for it yet. But times have changed and I think the profitability of captive raised coral and fish have yet to be seen. In the near future it will be a very viable option instead of actually ordering wild colonies and fish. I think also eventually the only reason for wild caught will be to gain new specimens for propagation.
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Here's my simple analogy... it's like diamond. the price of a diamond perfectly cutted is 1000 x the price of the same diamond in the rough. and if the diamond (same size) was cutted with some flaws, the price goes down significantly.
organism
Active Member
I think no, farmed corals shouldn't cost more than wild corals, because the end customer is mainly going to be looking for price over farmed corals. let's face it, we're the solid minority that are actually educated in how farmed corals are better than wild caught, but the prices are way, way off. I just sold a colony with about 80-90 dragon eyes for 49, but for the farmed ones they're about 10x that price simply because they use up so many more resources.
I think that if farmed corals could compete on the level of wild caught corals on prices, then people would become much more educated on the differences between them, but otherwise not many people are going to want to pay a minimum of triple the price for the same coral without understanding why.
The problem the way I see it isn't that farmed corals keep their color better or do better in tanks, it's that our hobby does an insane, unbelieveable amount of damage to the natural reefs around the world, we exploit the commodities of countries that are too poor to have a choice in our doing so, and any amount of corals that we can farm to displace that will at least bring a marginal amount of balance back into what is essentially a very destructive hobby. Once we can educate more reefers on those facts, then farming might be able to pick up more interest and viability in the hobby, so I'm saying no, farmed corals should be cheaper than wild caught, unfortunately, farmed corals can't be cheaper than wild caught...
I think that if farmed corals could compete on the level of wild caught corals on prices, then people would become much more educated on the differences between them, but otherwise not many people are going to want to pay a minimum of triple the price for the same coral without understanding why.
The problem the way I see it isn't that farmed corals keep their color better or do better in tanks, it's that our hobby does an insane, unbelieveable amount of damage to the natural reefs around the world, we exploit the commodities of countries that are too poor to have a choice in our doing so, and any amount of corals that we can farm to displace that will at least bring a marginal amount of balance back into what is essentially a very destructive hobby. Once we can educate more reefers on those facts, then farming might be able to pick up more interest and viability in the hobby, so I'm saying no, farmed corals should be cheaper than wild caught, unfortunately, farmed corals can't be cheaper than wild caught...
Cirrhilabrus
New Member
Well said and good point, Miguel.
It's good to see that some in the coral business are willing to address the economical and ecological effects our hobby has on the planet.
With that said, I'm more than willing to pay a few extra bucks for farmed corals.
It's good to see that some in the coral business are willing to address the economical and ecological effects our hobby has on the planet.
With that said, I'm more than willing to pay a few extra bucks for farmed corals.
ficklefins
Super Duper Moderator
I voted yes, I do believe that anything aquacultured should have a higher cost -vs- its wild counterpart. This explanation may be a bit long so I apologize, but I will cover a few important factors and arguments for what was said on the MARSH board.
Aquacultured zoas: (Health)
I would rather buy an aquacultured colony vs a wild caught colony because at the least you have the safe guard that the vendor probably did their best to rid their corals of pests. When I bring home a frag from another person I think about pests but not to the same level when I buy a colony from the LFS.
Another benefit to aquacultured corals is that they have proven themselves to grow in a captive environment. With all the factors that go into coral health, knowing that these have a chance in my tank is a benefit to me.
Aquacultured zoas: (Price)
The argument of price just doesn’t hold up. Show me something environmentally friendly or captive bred that is cheaper than something wild caught, (except for xenia :D ).
Could ORA sell their clowns for cheaper than wild caught clowns? People choose to buy live rock @ $3-$7/lb when aggrocrete is pennies per lb.
Non-Reef Metaphor:
Let’s take this out of the reef realm. If you go to a grocery store and buy an organic product or something grown through hydroponics, then will you not expect to pay more? If hybrid cars were less expensive than normal cars than wouldn’t you buy one?
The cost of making items that are more environmentally friendly is reflected in the purchase price. If the buyer chooses to overlook the end benefit of helping the environment and the reef hobby then they should not blame the vendor for it.
Aquacultured zoas: (Health)
I would rather buy an aquacultured colony vs a wild caught colony because at the least you have the safe guard that the vendor probably did their best to rid their corals of pests. When I bring home a frag from another person I think about pests but not to the same level when I buy a colony from the LFS.
Another benefit to aquacultured corals is that they have proven themselves to grow in a captive environment. With all the factors that go into coral health, knowing that these have a chance in my tank is a benefit to me.
Aquacultured zoas: (Price)
The argument of price just doesn’t hold up. Show me something environmentally friendly or captive bred that is cheaper than something wild caught, (except for xenia :D ).
Could ORA sell their clowns for cheaper than wild caught clowns? People choose to buy live rock @ $3-$7/lb when aggrocrete is pennies per lb.
Non-Reef Metaphor:
Let’s take this out of the reef realm. If you go to a grocery store and buy an organic product or something grown through hydroponics, then will you not expect to pay more? If hybrid cars were less expensive than normal cars than wouldn’t you buy one?
The cost of making items that are more environmentally friendly is reflected in the purchase price. If the buyer chooses to overlook the end benefit of helping the environment and the reef hobby then they should not blame the vendor for it.
jessiesgrrl
Hasslehoff is NOT Hot!
IMO, it depends on the market. For example, way back when everybody ate non white bread, white bread was really expensive and exclusive. Then, we could mass produce it for less, the price dropped to very cheap, and no one wanted to eat nonwhite bread anymore. Now, we have the health craze and the nonwhite bread is expensive and valued because it is in vogue- not truly because it costs more to make... LOL- the white bread is actually processed way more. So, it's cheaper at the moment to make the bread that costs more now (the nonwhite multigrain/whole grain type bread).
People's perceptions drive price, along with the usual volume concerns. Sad thing is, wildcaught is easier to get so we will devastate the natural resouce with our collective decisions to buy/not buy.
:(
Laurie
People's perceptions drive price, along with the usual volume concerns. Sad thing is, wildcaught is easier to get so we will devastate the natural resouce with our collective decisions to buy/not buy.
:(
Laurie
jessiesgrrl
Hasslehoff is NOT Hot!
I wish propagation could be cheaper than wildcaught so more people would buy exclusively propagated corals, but I understand the conflict in price per the length of time needed to grow it. I wish there was a simple solution... I buy propagated where I can to assuage my feelings of wildcaught guilt...
LOL
Laurie
LOL
Laurie
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reefboy
Valuable Member
well my two bit's is yes its not cheap growing these animals out i wont go into a speel on cost. But they should cost more but unfortunatly there are those that frag up wild colony's and pass them off as cultured thats ware knowing your seller comes in. I sell my wild as wild and cultured as such and as far as pricing goes you decide weather you want to pay that amount or not. Some go way overboard on there pricing some dont I try to be fair on my pricing but im sure some would agree and disagree on that but thats ok. All im trying to do is make a living for my family and provide quality livestock to the consumer and hopfuly take some pressure of our oceans.
Dejavu
SPS Addict
I agree. propagated coral always seem to do better.
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