Should we give our fish regular Medication?

[HotRocks]

I’m not saying that my method is foolproof. I’m hoping to spark some opinions on the topic of fish nutrition. I’m also putting the well documented topic that hobbyists are ill equipped to deal with the majority of illnesses a fish could have.

From the piece presented by macna the majority of the diseases we might encounter are internal and has no real outward symptoms that can be detected.

I’m also banking on the opinion that theoretically, diseases can be prevented and cured for sure, this doesn’t discard the fact that once introduced to the display, stress, injury, aggression may not cause a fish to fall ill especially when there are numerous airborne pathogens that can easily get into our fish tanks.

Many aquarists are just not equipped or able to perform the stringent quarantine methods employed by others. I would argue that the vast majority of reefers perform some kind of disease mitigation, but most of those aren’t actually effective and only offer a small chance of reducing the chances of harming their pets. Any mitigation is worth it though.

In our children’s lifetime some of the creatures we take for granted today will only be viewable in museums or television. Many will be placed on the endangered species list due to pollution, destruction of habitat and changing ocean conditions. It’s worth mitigating that impact to add a few years to this scenario.

I agree, I can't say my method is 100% foolproof either, I can say I have never seen a parasite in my DT. You have a beautiful tank, more beautiful than most so you are definitely doing something right.

I also agree that "most" hobbyists are not equipped to deal with these diseases we see on the forum every day. Proper QT is a large undertaking, it's expensive and requires much effort and observation.

They KEY here is having any med that may become necessary on hand. You can get simple things at a LFS. Some LFS carry much wider selections of meds than others. 75% of what I use is online only, some meds only available from a single vendor. Most of it can be had on Amazon. The reason I say it's key is because if something comes up that needs treated while a fish is in QT and you don't have the med on the shelf, it is the difference between life and death for the fish.

I will say everyday I see more and more people here at R2R becoming more equipped.

 

[4FordFamily]

I want to make a very important distinction. Fish that aren’t treated prophylacticaly to kill parasites before entering the DT are NOT immune. They are resistant.

To check this theory, add a few PBT to the tank and watch what a host like that does for the resident populations — they’ll reproduce so fast a resistance won’t matter for many fish. When you move the tank, a heater or other equipment breaks, or any number of other stress events occurs you’ll witness the difference between truly immune and resistant.

Scientifically there’s an immense difference between the two, immune is not really attainable, as a weakened fish or stressed fish can succumb to something it fought off for years.

 

[Neptune 555]

I put all fish in QT but i don't treat unless I see something... I am done with Prazi pro - lost many in QT BEFORE. I QT my fish w/ live rock and feed black worms / clams / mussels. They love it. Between QT I leave 2 months with the tank running to keep it aged and ensure any ich that did fall off dies. I know it is a risk... but getting them fat and healthy before going in the DT is my process. I am a fan of Paul B.

FWIW - my blue spotted puffer had an odd single spot on his fin... and a funny white patch on his side... I had been struggling with him eating enough for months... I have fed him black worms for 5 days straight his spot is gone and his color great. I could have treated him also for his illness... but this makes him stronger...

 

[Paul B]

So should we feed our fish medicated food from time to time as sort of a “checkup?”

No! And if I spelled that wrong, NO!

 

[Asonitez]

No! And if I spelled that wrong, NO!

Lol Hey Paul! I'm a big fan of your work.

Based on the responses thus far it stands reason that the majority feel that using medications as a preventative should be avoided because of possibly developing super diseases that are resistant to commercially available treatment which has larger implications than I care for. I would rather no one become patient Zero for a disease that wipes out all the fish in the world.

Secondly, I have heard from people that have stringent QT methods, Partial QT Methods, and No QT method. Even the people with stringent QT methods agree that their method is not foolproof but addresses quite a few pitfalls of reef keeping and disease mitigation. I'll refer to the QT methods a (SQT, Stringent QT) - (PQT- Partial QT), and NQT( - No QT) and define them as

SQT - This Reefer will
QT all specimens including coral and inverts.
Treat all specimens with medication regardless of if outward signs of sickness or disease appear.
Maintain separate, equipment, tools and resources to ensure cross contamination does not occur.
Reasonably has a disease free tank or at least a tank with fish thriving with no outward signs of disease.
No Ongoing treatments

PQT - This Reefer will
Observe and QT most specimens and known carriers of disease.
Will NOT preemptively treat using medications unless outward signs of disease appear.
MAY use medications preemptively for known specimens susceptible to disease (tangs etc etc)
May employ dips as a reasonable preventative and may use reef-safe medication or natural preventatives
Probably won't quarantine inverts or coral but would employ dips for coral and maybe freshwater dips for inverts.

NQT - This Reefer will
Pop n' Drop
May rely on nutrition vs medication
May have ongoing mitigation procedures that are all natural or in come cases commercially available medication
Definitely won't quarantine inverts or coral beyond the dip.

Naturally SQT will have the largest success rate, but at additional cost, space and resources. PQT will have reasonable success but due to gaps in the process they may find themselves with an issue at some point in their reefing career. NQT are rolling the dice but at least employing some stop-gaps to increase likelihood of success. I feel like the majority of reefers fall into this category.

The answer I was seeking of whether or not to medicate fish pro-actively or on-going seems to have more cons, than pro's - and as such I think I can safely say that the answer is: NO.
My question then becomes - does anyone have solid tip's for keeping fish healthy through nutrition or increasing the chances of success for those of us "myself included" that employ PQT and NQT methods ?

 

[HotRocks]

Lol Hey Paul! I'm a big fan of your work.

Based on the responses thus far it stands reason that the majority feel that using medications as a preventative should be avoided because of possibly developing super diseases that are resistant to commercially available treatment which has larger implications than I care for. I would rather no one become patient Zero for a disease that wipes out all the fish in the world.

Secondly, I have heard from people that have stringent QT methods, Partial QT Methods, and No QT method. Even the people with stringent QT methods agree that their method is not foolproof but addresses quite a few pitfalls of reef keeping and disease mitigation. I'll refer to the QT methods a (SQT, Stringent QT) - (PQT- Partial QT), and NQT( - No QT) and define them as

SQT - This Reefer will
QT all specimens including coral and inverts.
Treat all specimens with medication regardless of if outward signs of sickness or disease appear.
Maintain separate, equipment, tools and resources to ensure cross contamination does not occur.
Reasonably has a disease free tank or at least a tank with fish thriving with no outward signs of disease.
No Ongoing treatments

PQT - This Reefer will
Observe and QT most specimens and known carriers of disease.
Will NOT preemptively treat using medications unless outward signs of disease appear.
MAY use medications preemptively for known specimens susceptible to disease (tangs etc etc)
May employ dips as a reasonable preventative and may use reef-safe medication or natural preventatives
Probably won't quarantine inverts or coral but would employ dips for coral and maybe freshwater dips for inverts.

NQT - This Reefer will
Pop n' Drop
May rely on nutrition vs medication
May have ongoing mitigation procedures that are all natural or in come cases commercially available medication
Definitely won't quarantine inverts or coral beyond the dip.

Naturally SQT will have the largest success rate, but at additional cost, space and resources. PQT will have reasonable success but due to gaps in the process they may find themselves with an issue at some point in their reefing career. NQT are rolling the dice but at least employing some stop-gaps to increase likelihood of success. I feel like the majority of reefers fall into this category.

The answer I was seeking of whether or not to medicate fish pro-actively or on-going seems to have more cons, than pro's - and as such I think I can safely say that the answer is: NO.
My question then becomes - does anyone have solid tip's for keeping fish healthy through nutrition or increasing the chances of success for those of us "myself included" that employ PQT and NQT methods ?

I think most of this is accurate. I am all for prophylactic treatment of all fish in relation to parasites and deworming. Also a single round of food soaked medication upon arrival.

Just can't get on board with using antibiotics without symptoms repetitively in order to maintian healthy fish.

So if you are someone who chooses no QT (while I would never recommend anyone doing so) I would recommend the same things that most others would for general fish health. Feed high quality live or frozen foods. Add vitamin supplements to the food, things like selcon, zoecon, vitachem. Offer nori daily on a clip for tangs etc. Keeping pristine water and very stable parameters will also help. Anything you can do to boost the natural immune system and lower stress.

Additional equipment can be used such as oxydator, UV, diatom filter to help control the parasite population in the tank. Just to be clear I don't agree with this, nor do I use any of the equipment in my tank. Just saying these are additional tools that may help.

 

[Paul B]

Naturally SQT will have the largest success rate,

Of course I disagree.

The answer to your query depends on a few factors, mostly how and what you feed and a little about tank size, tank mates, stress etc.
IMO, if you are feeding dry foods, pellets, flakes, freeze dried etc, you should quarantine everything as your fish will have no immunity from anything and will be susceptible to virtually everything. Many people have successful tanks like that but as far as I know, no one has a very old quarantined tank with healthy fish. I feel fish can't be healthy if they are quarantined for an extended amount of time and not fed the correct foods with living bacteria and parasites. The fishes immune system is a very large part of a fishes expenditure of energy, probably the largest user of calories and a fish that is not using it's immune system, is not very healthy. IMO of course. Fish can live to their normal lifespan on dried foods but except for clowns, I doubt they will fill with eggs like virtually all female fish do constantly. A healthy female fish is "always" filled with eggs and will spawn every few weeks. Even if she is not part of a pair, she will fill with eggs. If you have a pair of fish and they are not spawning, they are not healthy. (for the people who disagree with that send me a SASE with $10.00 in it and I will go to a bar and buy a shot of Grand Marnier and ignore the letter )

If on the other hand, you have an established tank and are feeding something with living bacteria such as worms or clams a few times a week and your fish are spawning you never have to use any medications and you can use your quarantine and hospital tank for a terrarium for cactuses.
As to the Russian Roulette thing, I can't speak Russian but I dated a Russian Girl 47 years ago and the reef I had then is still running disease free today. I am still waiting for that Russian thing to kick in.

Your fish look fantastic so I don't think you should ever medicate them or play Rap music near them.

 

[HotRocks]

Of course I disagree.

The answer to your query depends on a few factors, mostly how and what you feed and a little about tank size, tank mates, stress etc.
IMO, if you are feeding dry foods, pellets, flakes, freeze dried etc, you should quarantine everything as your fish will have no immunity from anything and will be susceptible to virtually everything. Many people have successful tanks like that but as far as I know, no one has a very old quarantined tank with healthy fish. I feel fish can't be healthy if they are quarantined for an extended amount of time and not fed the correct foods with living bacteria and parasites. The fishes immune system is a very large part of a fishes expenditure of energy, probably the largest user of calories and a fish that is not using it's immune system, is not very healthy. IMO of course. Fish can live to their normal lifespan on dried foods but except for clowns, I doubt they will fill with eggs like virtually all female fish do constantly. A healthy female fish is "always" filled with eggs and will spawn every few weeks. Even if she is not part of a pair, she will fill with eggs. If you have a pair of fish and they are not spawning, they are not healthy. (for the people who disagree with that send me a SASE with $10.00 in it and I will go to a bar and buy a shot of Grand Marnier and ignore the letter )

If on the other hand, you have an established tank and are feeding something with living bacteria such as worms or clams a few times a week and your fish are spawning you never have to use any medications and you can use your quarantine and hospital tank for a terrarium for cactuses.
As to the Russian Roulette thing, I can't speak Russian but I dated a Russian Girl 47 years ago and the reef I had then is still running disease free today. I am still waiting for that Russian thing to kick in.

Your fish look fantastic so I don't think you should ever medicate them or play Rap music near them.

Paul, patiently waiting on you to drop that Achilles tang in... ;Troll;Troll;Troll

 

[drstardust]

Paul, patiently waiting on you to drop that Achilles tang in... ;Troll;Troll;Troll

Paul could make this a spectator event and charge admission ;Smuggrin

 

[Paul B]

Paul, patiently waiting on you to drop that Achilles tang in... ;Troll;Troll;Troll

I hate those things but if I find one I will throw it in. I have way too many fish so when it gets a little bigger I will have to try to catch it and give it away. They live forever and I won't.

The only reason I have any SPS corals is because a few people on forums told me they wouldn't live in my tank because it is to dirty. I hate those too but I have quite a few of them. My clown gobi killed all my acropora by spawning all over them. They were huge. I posted all of that with pictures. I also have a few iron nails hanging in my tank for a couple of weeks now because there is a thread on here that says Iron will kill your corals. My corals are all fighting as to which one is going to grow on the nails. My copperband is also supposed to be covered in ich because they are very susceptible. It never happened so I painted spots on him with "White Out".
Now I am going to have a stupid tang.

 

[4FordFamily]

For the record, I fed zero flakes, zero pellets, and only frozen foods with added nutrition, fresh prepared foods, and live blackworms for my fish. With a UV sterilizer, velvet and ich still ran rampant with acanthurus tangs in several tanks. I soaked foods in selcon and cod liver oil for 1-2 of the years I used ich management practices as suggested here. Actually, I used selcon for several of those years. I tried on multiple tangs and ended up killing 2 dozen or more powder blue, powder brown, and Achilles — each time absolutely sure I had found the secret sauce in lieu of proper quarantine. Nope.

Embarrassing to admit but that was the tipping point. I got some fish, even a few tangs, “resistant” to velvet. I killed more than I should before I found some that could be conditioned in such a way but it happened. A few zebrasoma tangs, a hippo tang, and a blonde naso tang off the top of my head, actually. For up to a few years in some cases.

Eventually, they succumbed to a stress event or an acanthurus tang being added which led to exponential population growth of parasites due to thin slime coat and susceptibility, whereby previously resistant (not immune - this is not a reality) fish began to succumb as they couldn’t fight off the unbelievable increase in attacking parasites.

If anyone cares to read more, here’s an article I wrote on the subject:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

 

[4FordFamily]

I also want to throw a thought in to the ring — I disagree with “regular” IE repeated treatment at some interval for really anything that isn’t symptomatic.

I AM for prophylactic treatment and prevention of disease and tank wipeouts. But this is only initially. Once added to the DT treatments shouldn’t be administered unless symptomatic.

There’s a big difference in the way the question/discussion is phrased/framed and I wanted to make the distinction.

I don’t LIKE the fact that so many fish are arriving in terrible shape with infections that wipe them out in 24-48 hours before you can identify the culprit. I don’t like treating them in such manner.

But I’m not going to be the grim reaper of fish now. Hopefully, the distribution system improves now or transhipping becomes more relevant to hobbyist-level customers.

Until then, I am going to treat fish based on the way things are not how I wish they were or should be.

 

[4FordFamily]

I wanted very much to believe that I could feed and UV sterilize velvet and disease away. It was so much easier (I thought) than quarantining properly. Much less hassle, I thought.

I was wrong. Notwithstanding the ethics of the thing.

I think this is the trap many fall in to as well. No one wants the best solution to be the most difficult solution but it often is.

Now thanks to @Humblefish, @melypr1985, @HotRocks, @Big G, and even that goofball @Brew12 and others here we have discovered newer more efficient ways to treat, shortened times required to treat (provided you have a second sterile quarantine ready), and greatly improved how we test meds so we don’t overdose them.

Many with “prejudice” against quarantine are comparing it to the way things used to be, and using an environment whereby fish were in far better condition than they are now as their Fran of reference. Many proponents keep only beginner level fish or fish with thick slime coats and don’t purchase new fish. These are some additional things to consider.

 

[Asonitez]

I suppose I’m lucky as my stocking is complete and I achieved that without killing a lot of fish. As fish grow their personalities might change and a disease absent for 5 years visually might read its ugly head.

I don’t have an easy choice. Any disease in my tank is already there. Even if I were to break down quarantine everything I wouldn’t be able to because of my coral population. So as such I have been sequestered into living a life of management. I’m ok with this I just fear the future.

 

[Big G]

Until then, I am going to treat fish based on the way things are not how I wish they were or should be.

Life is subject to change, without notice. And clearly we have seen this in this industry. One must consider these changes in order to plan and execute a "positive" path for the creatures we take into our care.

 

[Neptune 555]

Why can't all reefers replicate Paul B's success?

Paul seriously why don't you add the achilles tang? wow super expensive fish just checked on it... Would a powder blue tang work guys?? Also I remember reading an article/post that said you once threw a fish with ich in your tank b/c you felt sorry for him and he lived,... and your tank did not suffer?

I now feed live blackworms and clams to my fish weekly... I do QT but I don't treat in QT unless I see something. Every time I used prazi pro I lost one of my fish in QT. NO MORE. but I am not 100% sure I don't have diseases now.. just having a few good years I guess.

Neptune...

 

[HotRocks]

Why can't all reefers replicate Paul B's success?

Paul seriously why don't you add the achilles tang? wow super expensive fish just checked on it... Would a powder blue tang work guys?? Also I remember reading an article/post that said you once threw a fish with ich in your tank b/c you felt sorry for him and he lived,... and your tank did not suffer?

I now feed live blackworms and clams to my fish weekly... I do QT but I don't treat in QT unless I see something. Every time I used prazi pro I lost one of my fish in QT. NO MORE. but I am not 100% sure I don't have diseases now.. just having a few good years I guess.

Neptune...

Ich doesn't scare me either. But these velvet ridden gram negative bacrterial infected fish that come in these days... That's my concern. I'm telling you for a 100% fact, with my stock list dropping a fish in straight from LA is just not an option. Heck I'm well equipped to deal with this things and I have recieved fish completely covered in velvet that I couldn't keep alive.

 

[Paul B]

Neptune. I am not sure why so many people have so many medical fish issues. To me it is silly and a non issue. I don't care if it is ich, velvet, bacteria or plague.
Parasites are easy. Keep a thriving population in your tank, and your fish will be immune and never have to worry about them because fish were invented, by Al Gore to live with parasites, not be quarantined from them. Just ask any fish.
If you started your tank with a quarantine system it will be tough because those fish are damaged by having no immunity and will always have issues with illness.
If you ever had to medicate your fish, they were probably quarantined and not very healthy. Fish should never get sick. Mine never do and I never seem to buy one that stays sick. I have no medications. They jump out or die of old age, thats it. If you like, come over, I will give you a class of what I do. Maybe it's my very good looks or my Guardian Angel.

I don't have an achiles tang because I find them boreing, but if I find a small one I will throw it in. Then try to catch it to give it away before he gets to big.
In the decades that this tank has been running there were almost always tangs. Mostly hippo's because I find them the best looking but they live over 10 years and I just am over them.
If I get a hippo tang, people will say, Oh Well Hippo Tangs are the hardiest fish so they don't count
I have an old copperband who doesn't count and tiny bluestripe pipefish who don't count and very small glown gobies, (the last one I got covered in ich but fine now with no help from me)

As for putting infected fish in my reef, I do that all the time and I post about it. I want parasites as they boost the fishes immunity. Virtually everyone worries about such things. Isn't that interesting.

 

[Neptune 555]

Hey Paul,

So interesting about the tank needing bacteria... My basement tank has been running 4 years. All fish that entered were QT but none were provided meds. Some were Tank Transfer. I never see ich... Once the cleaners blew a fuse and didn't tell me.... and my tank was out of power completely for 24 hours... My angel died, my blue tang was upside down and my yellow tang was laying on his side struggling to breathe.. both tangs lived and never saw ich so I assumed I had an ich free tank. These fish are fat and healthy... I feed black worms / clams / frozen / flake. I am now wondering if my tank is sterile...? I am *thinking* of upgrading my 4 foot 100 gallon to a 6 foot 180 gallon b/c my tangs have outgrown their home. My concern is with a 180 I will obviously be adding way more fish... and assume parasites and bacteria will enter as my protocol is QT only 4 weeks and if fish looks good I add them to DT in the am with no lights on.

Neptune!!

 

[Paul B]

You may have parasites happily living in there with the fish which would make them immune if you feed correctly. They look very healthy and pristine, no marks or missing scales. Perfect fish.