Should we give our fish regular Medication?

[Asonitez]

I’m a pop and dropper. I look for healthy fish, acclimate, freshwater dip, prazipro dip, formalin dip and drop in the tank.

I have had losses before, and I have quarantined correctly before. However, I don’t quarantine my corals, or inverts in most cases and as such even with those precautions I have caught diseases.

For the last year, I have regularly follows my
Pop and drop Method however for 1 week out of the month I regularly feed, metroplex bound to frozen food with Focus as the binder. I use a few drops of garlic guard, and will mix in some Dr. Tim’s medicated caviar.

I feed with the pumps turned off, in an area away from corals and inverts and use a turkey baster to make sure the fish eat all the food before feeding more again.

To date, I have some very large, very fat tangs and wrasses.

Since employing this regimen I have had no losses, or disease breakouts.


So should we feed our fish medicated food from time to time as sort of a “checkup?”

More details on my system @ youtube.com/c/tristiansreef

 

[EmdeReef]

Beautiful tank and fish!

I don’t think feeding antibiotics prophylactically is generally advisable. Abx are harsh on your fish and over time there could be issues around resistance as well as other side effects.

Overall, I’d say you’ve been lucky not to have encountered velvet, more serious bacterial infections etc. and that’s great but I’d attribute it to sourcing healthy fish, immunity rather than feeding metro once a month.

 

[Asonitez]

Thanks !

Here’s the thing, I’m constantly adding corals etc. any of these can bring in disease. Without knowing, immunity boosters and proactive fish health i feel are all I got.

Are there better “vitamins?” I wish the industry would focus on fish health considering we spend as much as a purebred dog for a fish that lives just as long.

Other than selcon I’m dissappointed in my options.

 

[EmdeReef]

The best you can do is keep adding corals from sources you trust. Assuming you dip for coral pests. Also adding corals is generally less risky than adding fish without quarantine or at least observation.

Your fish will probably get enough vitamins from almost any better fish food. Selcon is ok to use. Minimizing stress is probably more important than feeding vitamins etc.

If you search for posts from @Paul B you can get some good ideas what to feed your fish to keep them healthy and boost their immune system.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Interesting discussion so far. I'm curious about the take others might have. BUMP!

 

[Radman73]

I would refrain from antibiotics. Overuse in humans seems to be creating resistances, causing us to come up with new ones that are in turn overprescribed and overused. Rinse and repeat.

FWIW, my 16yo daughter has never been on them, and my 13yo son has been on them once. So, for the fish, I use them when I think they need them in QT, and never any other time. I think keeping water quality high combined with feeding as high quality foods as you can afford would be more beneficial. JMO.

 

[I_Got_Crabs]

I’m a pop and dropper. I look for healthy fish, acclimate, freshwater dip, prazipro dip, formalin dip and drop in the tank.

I have had losses before, and I have quarantined correctly before. However, I don’t quarantine my corals, or inverts in most cases and as such even with those precautions I have caught diseases.

For the last year, I have regularly follows my
Pop and drop Method however for 1 week out of the month I regularly feed, metroplex bound to frozen food with Focus as the binder. I use a few drops of garlic guard, and will mix in some Dr. Tim’s medicated caviar.

I feed with the pumps turned off, in an area away from corals and inverts and use a turkey baster to make sure the fish eat all the food before feeding more again.

To date, I have some very large, very fat tangs and wrasses.

Since employing this regimen I have had no losses, or disease breakouts.


So should we feed our fish medicated food from time to time as sort of a “checkup?”

More details on my system @ youtube.com/c/tristiansreef

What is that pink wrasse in the first pic? So nice...

 

[wesman42]

I would refrain from antibiotics. Overuse in humans seems to be creating resistances, causing us to come up with new ones that are in turn overprescribed and overused. Rinse and repeat.

FWIW, my 16yo daughter has never been on them, and my 13yo son has been on them once. So, for the fish, I use them when I think they need them in QT, and never any other time. I think keeping water quality high combined with feeding as high quality foods as you can afford would be more beneficial. JMO.

I agree with this completely. Antibiotic resistance is a product of micro-evolution of certain bacterial strains into tougher, resistant strains. For this reason, I'd be really careful about introducing antibiotics repeatedly. You might end up with a bad bacterial infection that's mutated so much it no longer responds to antibiotics.

 

[dsh92056]

I don't QT never have never will and never had a problem. I also float the bag for 20 min and in they go. Worked for a LFS and that's how they did it. I've lost more things drip acclamating then dropping them in. With that said I've been using a product called Fishkeeper on all of my tanks and never have had a problem with diseases or anything else.

 

[Asonitez]

I can certainly understand why antibiotics can over time be harmful for fish. What I'm saying is that in terms of "FISH NUTRITION", I'm not aware of many companies taking an active interest in fish nutrition. Imagine spending 600 dollars on a Gem Tang easily one of the rarest fish available to an fish keeper. Loosing one in MY TANK would leave me a little down in the dumps. If I took every consideration to quarantine my fish, but (1) mistake in the lifespan of a reef led me to catch a disease I kind of want to give my fish a CHANCE at least. I don't really know of anyone that takes that kind of precaution that they can have a perfect disease free tank. I honestly don't think anyone has a disease free tank. I forgot the MACNA speaker that quoted that like 80% of fish that come into the hobby have some kind of disease. Yet as reefers and hobbyists we can only identify a handful of these. Most of which are "visible" to some degree to the eye.

If i'm going to spend 600 dollars on the equivalent of a pure bred puppy to my reef I kind of want him to have his shots. I kind of want him to have regular and interim "checkups" and "shots" to ensure a long healthy life.

I mostly try to feed my fish healthy options where possible. Tangs get Red/Green seaweed and occasionally when possible I'll order some live macro to feed them. My wrasses will get blood worms, and chopped shrimp and other "treats" which honestly can get really expensive. I'm looking for the equivalent of a Centrum 100 to give my fish a real chance.

This means that I regularly feed my guys some medicated food to keep their immunity up, address any intestinal issues, and overall keep them kicking.

Overtime stresses, bruises, and aggression, although I don't have much, and just general fish drama can wear and tear on my guys. Sticking like 10 different species in a 8 foot glass box is a stress in itself. I know people that dose Ruby Kick-Ich in their reefs regularly to "possibly stop" any outbreaks of stress induced outbreaks of ich. Those same ppl have no issues with throwing a brand new walt disney frag into their reef because they don't have a quarantine setup capable of keeping their expensive new acquisitions in the same state as their main display.

 

[wesman42]

Medicated food doesn't build up immunity to illness.

Talk to @Paul B. His fish are what you'd strive to be: immune to most illness.

 

[HotRocks]

I can certainly understand why antibiotics can over time be harmful for fish. What I'm saying is that in terms of "FISH NUTRITION", I'm not aware of many companies taking an active interest in fish nutrition. Imagine spending 600 dollars on a Gem Tang easily one of the rarest fish available to an fish keeper. Loosing one in MY TANK would leave me a little down in the dumps. If I took every consideration to quarantine my fish, but (1) mistake in the lifespan of a reef led me to catch a disease I kind of want to give my fish a CHANCE at least. I don't really know of anyone that takes that kind of precaution that they can have a perfect disease free tank. I honestly don't think anyone has a disease free tank. I forgot the MACNA speaker that quoted that like 80% of fish that come into the hobby have some kind of disease. Yet as reefers and hobbyists we can only identify a handful of these. Most of which are "visible" to some degree to the eye.

If i'm going to spend 600 dollars on the equivalent of a pure bred puppy to my reef I kind of want him to have his shots. I kind of want him to have regular and interim "checkups" and "shots" to ensure a long healthy life.

I mostly try to feed my fish healthy options where possible. Tangs get Red/Green seaweed and occasionally when possible I'll order some live macro to feed them. My wrasses will get blood worms, and chopped shrimp and other "treats" which honestly can get really expensive. I'm looking for the equivalent of a Centrum 100 to give my fish a real chance.

This means that I regularly feed my guys some medicated food to keep their immunity up, address any intestinal issues, and overall keep them kicking.

Overtime stresses, bruises, and aggression, although I don't have much, and just general fish drama can wear and tear on my guys. Sticking like 10 different species in a 8 foot glass box is a stress in itself. I know people that dose Ruby Kick-Ich in their reefs regularly to "possibly stop" any outbreaks of stress induced outbreaks of ich. Those same ppl have no issues with throwing a brand new walt disney frag into their reef because they don't have a quarantine setup capable of keeping their expensive new acquisitions in the same state as their main display.

While this is a controversial topic I am on the other side of the spectrum. @Paul B definitely has some very interesting creatures in his tank and a wealth of knowledge in overall fish health.

My opinion of plop and drop is equivalent to one playing Russian Roulette with their fish. I wouldn't hesitate for a single second to buy a gem tang and put it through full QT. Matter of fact I just did so for @4FordFamily. My fish are just like Paul's, fat, happy, and healthy. Only difference is mine are parasite free, compared to "immune".

Whether or not you are willing to keep fish in an ich management tank may have alot to do with the fish you desire to keep. It is fully possible to keep some species of fish in the presence of ich without much issue. Things like oxydator, UV, diatom will also control but not erradicate free swimmers.

I have recently (over the last year QTd +/- 100 fish). I can tell.you for certain if 25% to 50% of them were placed into my DT prior to treatment it would not have ended well. I'm talking about velvet and gram negative ridden fish. This isn't getting any better and IMO we have a pretty serious problem on our hands with a very polluted distribution system.

@4FordFamily can probably elaborate much more on ich/velvet management as he practiced it for 10 years prior to using the stringent QT protocol he practices today.

As far as using ABX repeatedly, I think that is a bad idea and over time will create resistance problem and not end well long term.

Put it this way, so long as you keep a clean DT by removing all parasites from the equation, and any infections are treated upon arrival as well as deworming. I have never once worried about dropping a cheap or expensive fish in my DT.

My .02

 

[Asonitez]

I’m not saying that my method is foolproof. I’m hoping to spark some opinions on the topic of fish nutrition. I’m also putting the well documented topic that hobbyists are ill equipped to deal with the majority of illnesses a fish could have.

From the piece presented by macna the majority of the diseases we might encounter are internal and has no real outward symptoms that can be detected.

I’m also banking on the opinion that theoretically, diseases can be prevented and cured for sure, this doesn’t discard the fact that once introduced to the display, stress, injury, aggression may not cause a fish to fall ill especially when there are numerous airborne pathogens that can easily get into our fish tanks.

Many aquarists are just not equipped or able to perform the stringent quarantine methods employed by others. I would argue that the vast majority of reefers perform some kind of disease mitigation, but most of those aren’t actually effective and only offer a small chance of reducing the chances of harming their pets. Any mitigation is worth it though.

In our children’s lifetime some of the creatures we take for granted today will only be viewable in museums or television. Many will be placed on the endangered species list due to pollution, destruction of habitat and changing ocean conditions. It’s worth mitigating that impact to add a few years to this scenario.

 

[drstardust]

While this is a controversial topic I am on the other side of the spectrum. @Paul B definitely has some very interesting creatures in his tank and a wealth of knowledge in overall fish health.

My opinion of plop and drop is equivalent to one playing Russian Roulette with their fish. I wouldn't hesitate for a single second to buy a gem tang and put it through full QT. Matter of fact I just did so for @4FordFamily. My fish are just like Paul's, fat, happy, and healthy. Only difference is mine are parasite free, compared to "immune".

Whether or not you are willing to keep fish in an ich management tank may have alot to do with the fish you desire to keep. It is fully possible to keep some species of fish in the presence of ich without much issue. Things like oxydator, UV, diatom will also control but not erradicate free swimmers.

I have recently (over the last year QTd +/- 100 fish). I can tell.you for certain if 25% to 50% of them were placed into my DT prior to treatment it would not have ended well. I'm talking about velvet and gram negative ridden fish. This isn't getting any better and IMO we have a pretty serious problem on our hands with a very polluted distribution system.

@4FordFamily can probably elaborate much more on ich/velvet management as he practiced it for 10 years prior to using the stringent QT protocol he practices today.

As far as using ABX repeatedly, I think that is a bad idea and over time will create resistance problem and not end well long term.

Put it this way, so long as you keep a clean DT by removing all parasites from the equation, and any infections are treated upon arrival as well as deworming. I have never once worried about dropping a cheap or expensive fish in my DT.

My .02

I completely agree with all of this. I have a lot of respect for @Paul B. The man is clearly doing something right. However, whether his results are reproducible by other hobbyists is a completely different consideration with lots of variables. As such, I am on the same page as @HotRocks and @4FordFamily with regard to QT, and I've had great successes with it also. And yes, please, as a physician I strongly ask that you not contribute to antibiotic resistance in bacteria and other microbes by dosing it when not necessary. @Asonitez best of luck to you in your reefing, whichever path you choose. Your tank is amazing and I wish you nothing but luck

 

[Asonitez]

I completely agree with all of this. I have a lot of respect for @Paul B. The man is clearly doing something right. However, whether his results are reproducible by other hobbyists is a completely different consideration with lots of variables. As such, I am on the same page as @HotRocks and @4FordFamily with regard to QT, and I've had great successes with it also. And yes, please, as a physician I strongly ask that you not contribute to antibiotic resistance in bacteria and other microbes by dosing it when not necessary. @Asonitez best of luck to you in your reefing, whichever path you choose. Your tank is amazing and I wish you nothing but luck

Hey Dr. Thanks for the response. I can definitely understand the antibiotic resistance, and truthfully I’m not feeding it that alone or as often as one would think. Does bacteria also treat other medications the same way? Such as metroplex, prazi, or any of the other commercially available meds to aquarists?

 

[drstardust]

Hey Dr. Thanks for the response. I can definitely understand the antibiotic resistance, and truthfully I’m not feeding it that alone or as often as one would think. Does bacteria also treat other medications the same way? Such as metroplex, prazi, or any of the other commercially available meds to aquarists?

Yes, resistance can develop to all medications, by all microbes. Bacteria in particular are tricky sly little buggers based on the simplicity of their DNA and ability to adapt and develop resistance quickly. Other organisms can adapt too. Every once in a while you'll hear on this forum of a case of prazi resistant flukes or even ich/velvet that is resistant to copper or chloroquine.

 

[EmdeReef]

I’m not saying that my method is foolproof. I’m hoping to spark some opinions on the topic of fish nutrition. I’m also putting the well documented topic that hobbyists are ill equipped to deal with the majority of illnesses a fish could have.

From the piece presented by macna the majority of the diseases we might encounter are internal and has no real outward symptoms that can be detected.

I’m also banking on the opinion that theoretically, diseases can be prevented and cured for sure, this doesn’t discard the fact that once introduced to the display, stress, injury, aggression may not cause a fish to fall ill especially when there are numerous airborne pathogens that can easily get into our fish tanks.

Many aquarists are just not equipped or able to perform the stringent quarantine methods employed by others. I would argue that the vast majority of reefers perform some kind of disease mitigation, but most of those aren’t actually effective and only offer a small chance of reducing the chances of harming their pets. Any mitigation is worth it though.

In our children’s lifetime some of the creatures we take for granted today will only be viewable in museums or television. Many will be placed on the endangered species list due to pollution, destruction of habitat and changing ocean conditions. It’s worth mitigating that impact to add a few years to this scenario.

Nutrition will help for sure, to what extant we don’t know as you’d have to study every ingredient in the food. I am not aware of any such study.

I think I see 2 questions:

1) is nutrition helpful to fish - i’d Say absolutely yes similar to any live organisms

2) can nutrition help stave off pathogens? - yes to some extent.
Similar to human illnesses there Are no 100% effective prophylactic solutions. You can’t prveent cancer by only eating kale or whatever else you want to eat; you can’t treat every sick fish by throwing a random antibiotic to their feed (in this case metro).

Edit: autocorrect

 

[Seawitch]

If I may also chime in. No, I don't think it's a good idea to give your fish antibiotics to prevent illness. I would only give them if you're pretty sure they need them for a specific infection. And I agree with those who have already said that the reasoning is because giving antibiotics when the fish don't need them contributes to the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

I know in humans, there are very few reasons for prophylactic antibiotic use. One that I can think of off the top of my head is the use of Macrodantin (nitrofurantoin) for chronic bladder infections. And sometimes they're used for immuno-compromised patients undergoing chemo. Some doctors give them pre-surgery.

I know in dogs, it's similar to humans, and there are very few reasons for prophylactic antibiotic use. One is for chronic bladder infections, two is for immuno-compromised dogs undergoing chemo, and three is sometimes pre-surgery, especially mouth surgery.

I did find some research discussing this regarding fish, and the opinion seems to be that it's better to try to boost their general health and lower their stress levels, than to treat with antibiotic prophylaxis.

 

[drstardust]

I did find some research discussing this regarding fish, and the opinion seems to be that it's better to try to boost their general health and lower their stress levels, than to treat with antibiotic prophylaxis.

Great paper, thanks for posting

 

[Tamberav]

Besides creating a superbug... antibiotics also negativity impact gut flora as it effects good bacteria too. This is why we sometimes see probiotics given with antibiotics.

I don't see any benefit to anyone or anything taking them 'just because' and one dose isn't going to cure an infection anyways. It just opened doors for resistance and messing with their gut.