So, explain dinos caused by low nutrients to me.

[Azedenkae]

Molecular insights into a dinoflagellate bloom - The ISME Journal

In coastal waters worldwide, an increase in frequency and intensity of algal blooms has been attributed to eutrophication, with further increases predicted because of climate change. Yet, the cellular-level changes that occur in blooming algae remain largely unknown. Comparative...

www.nature.com

Especially in the context of something like the study above, where dino blooms were linked with increased demand for carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. Why would low nutrients result in a bloom?

 

[Dan_P]

Molecular insights into a dinoflagellate bloom - The ISME Journal

In coastal waters worldwide, an increase in frequency and intensity of algal blooms has been attributed to eutrophication, with further increases predicted because of climate change. Yet, the cellular-level changes that occur in blooming algae remain largely unknown. Comparative...

www.nature.com

Especially in the context of something like the study above, where dino blooms were linked with increased demand for carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. Why would low nutrients result in a bloom?

Thank you for the very interesting read. I especially liked the notion about there potentially being a bacteria-dinoflagellate interaction.

I am not a proponent of the current popular conjecture that low phosphate concentration, or low anything, causes dinoflagellate growth. I will point out that the nuisance organisms we deal with are surface dwelling organisms not planktonic and that water chemistry might be totally irrelevant. What is happening in and around the aquarium biofilms where dinoflagellates flourish will be a critical feature of any explanation of dinoflagellate growth. The state of the aquarium biofilm is simply unknowable through any measurement we make of water quality.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Thank you for the very interesting read. I especially liked the notion about there potentially being a bacteria-dinoflagellate interaction.

I am not a proponent of the current popular conjecture that low phosphate concentration, or low anything, causes dinoflagellate growth. I will point out that the nuisance organisms we deal with are surface dwelling organisms not planktonic and that water chemistry might be totally irrelevant. What is happening in and around the aquarium biofilms where dinoflagellates flourish will be a critical feature of any explanation of dinoflagellate growth. The state of the aquarium biofilm is simply unknowable through any measurement we make of water quality.

A very interesting point about the specific “biofilm” ecosystem in our reefs. I just finished vacuuming cyano (or dinos—whatever!) and made a couple of observations: the mats seem to cover area of detritus buildup on the rocks (mucky stuff maybe as a result of copepod or worm feeding and pooping) and these mats don’t necessarily form where floating strands settle. In fact the floating bits and pieces seem to dissolve into the water. Then there’s the distribution determined by light and maybe flow. Indeed there is much to learn about such an infuriating simple organism.

 

[Harold999]

Low nutrients = no food for the competition of the dino's. Keep your nitrates at 10-20 and the dino's will eventually suffer.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Low nutrients = no food for the competition of the dino's. Keep your nitrates at 10-20 and the dino's will eventually suffer.

Yes, that is the “current popular conjecture”. The article states in natural systems dinoflagellate blooms are associated with high nutrient states. The question then is why the discrepancy ?

 

[Brymac1]

Interesting discussion. I know Abe at Coral Euphoria doesn't buy into low nutrients causing dinos. Maybe there is something to that.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.

 

[a.t.t.r]

A very interesting point about the specific “biofilm” ecosystem in our reefs. I just finished vacuuming cyano (or dinos—whatever!) and made a couple of observations: the mats seem to cover area of detritus buildup on the rocks (mucky stuff maybe as a result of copepod or worm feeding and pooping) and these mats don’t necessarily form where floating strands settle. In fact the floating bits and pieces seem to dissolve into the water. Then there’s the distribution determined by light and maybe flow. Indeed there is much to learn about such an infuriating simple organism.

Mine seem to grow on perfectly clean surfaces sand bed directly in the output of a2k gph pump .It also grows on the bryopsis smothering it (I actually want bryopsis )

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.

Very good description of the biology of dinos. It is very possible that a low nutrient state causes a change (biological or chemical) in the biofilm ecosystem allowing dinos to flourish. But again why in natural systems is eutrophication the initiating event?

 

[Brymac1]

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.

Hey I just read the article that all came from lol

 

[Spare time]

I am cautious to ever say "caused" but I have a strong belief that it their over-appearence is correlated with phosphate reaching 0. I have no clue what would cause it. Aquariums are VERY different than natural bodies of water, so using studies on "wild" dinoflagellates may not be relevant.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey I just read the article that all came from lol

On a business trip but thought it would give you useful info. I really can’t reply properly when I’m in essence working

 

[brahm]

I have years and years of successfully keeping tanks without dino's running my Phosphate @ 0 (via a hannah checker), and nitrate sub 5. The system before this one I logged everything in a spreadsheet; daily for extensive periods. That tank was set up with dead rock. Took a break and now that I'm back everyone is going on about dino this and dino that. Not sure what changed, I wish I could say my current tank was at .03 / < 5 but I can't seem to keep it down even with all the new fancy gadgets; but it's also only a year old so I'm not too worried about it.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I have years and years of successfully keeping tanks without dino's running my Phosphate @ 0 (via a hannah checker), and nitrate sub 5. The system before this one I logged everything in a spreadsheet; daily for extensive periods. That tank was set up with dead rock. Took a break and now that I'm back everyone is going on about dino this and dino that. Not sure what changed, I wish I could say my current tank was at .03 / < 5 but I can't seem to keep it down even with all the new fancy gadgets; but it's also only a year old so I'm not too worried about it.

Same here, though my current setup started with 1/2 live and 1/2 dry. I did develop yellow snot dinos early on but cleared up without dosing nitrate/phosphate. I do have mild cyano, but really isn’t bad.

 

[mdb_talon]

I am not going to pretend to be able to scientifically say why, but will say the only time i ever get dinos(of any noticeable amount) is when my nutrients stay bottomed out for more than a couple weeks. That explanation is not scientific evidence, but reminds me of the joke.... "Doctor my arm hurts if i move it this way". Doctor: "then dont move it that way". If i get dinos with low nutrients.....then dont get low nutrients.

I am open to learning more and being convinced it is really unrelated, but until this correlation stops being true for me(even if i cant prove causation) then that is the approach i take(not bottom out nutrients)

 

[Harold999]

Yes, that is the “current popular conjecture”. The article states in natural systems dinoflagellate blooms are associated with high nutrient states. The question then is why the discrepancy ?

There could be other reasons than a lack of food for the competition to be absent. I'm thinking about (chemical) pollution for example.

 

[chema]

Dinoflagellates are protists organisms -those that do not fit within the three natural kingdoms: animalia, plantae or fungus- with ability to move with rotating movements. All dinoflagellates have the common feature of having two flagella located at right angles allowing them to perform such rotational movement which makes them easily recognizable (although some species such as the genus symbiodinium they are virtually immobile).
There are about 2.400 species which have a highly variable size ranging from 20 and 300 µm in the most common ones and up to 2 mm in the case of species such as noctiluca. In the marine aquarium species are usual smaller as symbiodinium and Amphidinium, While some like ostreopsis are large and can be seen without a microscope (with good lighting and visual acuity).
The problem arises when conditions in the aquarium break the biological balance and some dinoflagellate species spread uncontrollably, smothering the rest of the aquarium inhabitants. If the dinoflagellate species in question has the ability to produce toxins (usual in ostreopsis, gambierdiscus and prorocentrum to name a few)
The problem often arises when we try to bring cleanliness it to the limit, in order to improve its appearance and color of corals.
They tend to occur suddenly when the aquarium water reaches an extraordinary cleanliness, in which most microorganisms perishes for lack of food. With no other organisms that can stop them, this type of dinoflagellate can multiply so fast that when we realize it's late and we will find an aquarium full of brown and ochre slime suffocating fish and invertebrates. These dinoflagellates possess chloroplasts enabling them to synthesize their own food even under a minimal amount of light. Some species can form cysts called pellicles which allow them to remain in the aquarium for months although we have completely sterilized or kept in complete darkness. Once the light or the right conditions come back, they will reappear and thus problems.
Most of these dinoflagellates have a very curious behavior, typical of pathogens and parasites. With the presence of light they secrete mucus which adhere to any surface, including algae, coral and fish. They spend hours synthesising food and extending vertically in search of the light source (if we turn off the pumps in the aquarium we can see brown filaments grow towards the surface). When the light source disappears and can no longer synthesize food, it begins to diminish to none.

For the sake of precision. Current taxonomy recognizes six kingdoms of organisms: Archaebacteria, Eubacteria, Protista, Fungi, Plants and Animals. Archaebacteria and Eubacteria are prokaryotes, and the other four kingdoms are eukaryotes.

Besides this, I fully disagree with the assumption that dinos begin to flourish when phosphate reaches close to 0. I have had dinos for the 8 months covering some areas of the sand substrate (none on the rocks or corals) and the phosphate concentration in the water column never went below 0,05. Usually it is between 0,1 and 0,2. It is very unlikely that those concentrations in the water column might allow for a phosphate concentration very close to 0 in the sand.
I'm more prone to think that dinos arise when there is an unbalance with other microorganisms populating the substrate.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I did develop yellow snot dinos early on but cleared up without dosing nitrate/phosphate.

I have had dinos for the 8 months covering some areas of the sand substrate (none on the rocks or corals) and the phosphate concentration in the water column never went below 0,05.

Did you make sure it wasn't just diatoms? In my opinion the only way to make sure, is to put them under a microscope and indentify them positive as dinoflagellates.

In my opinion "0" phosphate is not necessary for dinoflagellate or cyanobacterial growth but it severly inhibits coral and coralline algal growth. This releases the dinoflagellates or cyanos from competition for iron and reduced nitrogen compounds and in this indirect way supports their growth.

To my knowledge dinoflagellate blooms in nature frequently are associated with reduced nitrogen compounds like sewage discharge.

 

[chema]

Did you make sure it wasn't just diatoms? In my opinion the only way to make sure, is to put them under a microscope and indentify them positive as dinoflagellates.

In my opinion "0" phosphate is not necessary for dinoflagellate or cyanobacterial growth but it severly inhibits coral and coralline algal growth. This releases the dinoflagellates or cyanos from competition for iron and reduced nitrogen compounds and in this indirect way supports their growth.

To my knowledge dinoflagellate blooms in nature frequently are associated with reduced nitrogen compounds like sewage discharge.

Yes, they were identified by microscopy (large dinoflagellates, Amphidinium).

Also, I'm not sure about the competition for iron. I interrupted iron addition and performed no water changes for three months with no visible reduction of the Amphidinium colonization of sand. On the other hand, I killed some of my Montipora.

Regarding coralline, it keeps growing like mad all over rocks and glass. Therefore, I guess it should keep competing with dinos for whatever micronutrient (s)

 

[vetteguy53081]

I run at 2 for nitrate and near zero phosphate and no algae, Dino or diatoms in multiple tanks