SPS Trouble in happy LPS Tank

[ekandler]

I've been having trouble with SPS for a while now, thought I'd ask for someone's thoughts on my issues. You can see I have a red digi which is fine, good coloration but not much growth, next to a purple stylo with some polyp extension on the tips but white base. I got that purple stylo "frag" a month or so ago from a friend, in his tank it has crazy polyp extension and in mine the polyp extension was immediately less and over time the base has gone white while the tips stayed purple, for now... You can also see a completely pale white jack-o-lantern stylo in low light and a almost brown forest fire digi frag next to happy chalice and ricordia.

for my specs/equipment, I have Radion gen 5 blues on 35% intensity, don't think lighting is my issue. I have 3 powerheads on relatively low settings to get good movement around my tank. I have good polyp extension on my euphyllia with gentle movement, so I don't think flow is my issue. I have a healthy refugium, decent skimmer with an attached recirculating CO2 scrubber, KLIR filter roller, and carbon in a reactor. I dose BRS 2 part with a Trident/DOS and usually dose 2ml of brightwell aminos daily, but I stopped that yesterday to try and limit the stuff going on in the tank to try to isolate an issue.

for chemistry, the Trident/DOS keeps 8.6 alk, 440 calc, 1350 mag to the best of it's ability. Temp is 79-80, pH 8.2-8.4, and nitrate/phosphate usually around 10-15ppm/0.05-0.08ppm. I am working on getting my nutrients down and more consistent. For feeding, I feed LRS reef frenzy exclusively every other day and nori when I'm not lazy which is usually 1-2 times a week. I don't feed any specific coral foods.

Anyone see any glaring issues here? My friend who I got these from grows coral like weeds and we do all the same stuff. He's given me all the advice he can, but my stuff struggles when he has thriving acro colonies...

 

[Daniel]

Have you done an ICP test yet? I find that often helps to gather a little more info beyond what our test kits can usually weed out. I use the Triton ICP test but anything that does the full panel should help provide more info and possibly diagnose the issue.

 

[ekandler]

Have you done an ICP test yet? I find that often helps to gather a little more info beyond what our test kits can usually weed out. I use the Triton ICP test but anything that does the full panel should help provide more info and possibly diagnose the issue.

In the past I have, and I have one on hand I was planning to send in tomorrow. Last one I did was in June of this year and these were the results. Since the printed version doesn't make it obvious, the online format says my only issues are Bromine (says it should be 0ppm), Cobalt (should be 10ppb), Iron (should be 20ppb), Iodine (should be 50ppb), and Manganese (should be 10ppb). I have no idea if their suggested values are right.

I will say, I've been in this hobby years and everyone has told me to keep it as simple as possible. I have a 7 stage RODI (highest BRS makes) and use RedSea blue bucket salt, that's all I do for parameters in the water other than 2 part dosing. If something specific like manganese or iron is out of tolerance, I'm not sure what I should do about that other than buy a bottle of additive, but then I can't test for it... seems risky to me. That's always been my confusion about ICP tests. I always do them, but I don't know what to do with the results ha

 

[jda]

I would get the light up unless you used PAR meter and know that you have enough.

Feed your fish more. Some frozen every other day and some nori when you remember is probably not cutting it. Contrary to what the mob on here thinks, nitrate and phosphate on test kits does not feed your coral and you need ammonia/ammonium from fish waste to deliver nitrogen and the many kinds of phosphate/phosphorous to your corals. You might be seeing why LPS are easier to keep than SPS where what you are doing is OK, but not for even the digis.

Some white light might not hurt either.

If you do increase the feeding, make sure that your residual levels of N and P do not get too high or they can start to growth limit and then poison the SPS... 10-15 is a lot differen than 25-40, IMO.

If you don't have many fish, then look at dosing ammonia/ammonium.

 

[TX_Punisher]

If you don't have many fish, then look at dosing ammonia/ammonium.

what product(s) would you recommend? regular household ammonia or something else?

thanks

 

[ekandler]

I would get the light up unless you used PAR meter and know that you have enough.

Feed your fish more. Some frozen every other day and some nori when you remember is probably not cutting it. Contrary to what the mob on here thinks, nitrate and phosphate on test kits does not feed your coral and you need ammonia/ammonium from fish waste to deliver nitrogen and the many kinds of phosphate/phosphorous to your corals. You might be seeing why LPS are easier to keep than SPS where what you are doing is OK, but not for even the digis.

Some white light might not hurt either.

If you do increase the feeding, make sure that your residual levels of N and P do not get too high or they can start to growth limit and then poison the SPS... 10-15 is a lot differen than 25-40, IMO.

If you don't have many fish, then look at dosing ammonia/ammonium.

I have 15ish fish and I only cut back my feeding recently. I had been doing daily frozen for at least a year, and this problem isn’t new. I cut back my feeding after swapping my rock when I noticed the tank wasn’t able to handle the nutrient export it used to. I feed whatever the tank can handle with constant nutrients, I have the biggest skimmer that’ll fit in my sump and a large refugium, so I don’t think I could do much more in the way of nutrient export aside from additives like NoPox.

 

[ekandler]

Something I haven’t explored before, I just noticed my emerald crab on my digi. I assumed they were reef safe and didn’t think anything of it until now… after some research I’ve found a few people saying they can eat SPS… maybe they have something to do with my issues?…

 

[jda]

If you cut back on import, you not only give less to the fish, but also the corals. Find a way to up the export. Another skimmer, some deeper sand, more real live rock, a fuge are good natural methods. Do not underestimate how much not getting nitrogen to your corals can keep them from growing and looking good - it costs them a good deal of energy to convert no3 back to nitrogen for the micro algae to use and corals that are not thriving cannot do this well.

 

[ekandler]

If you cut back on import, you not only give less to the fish, but also the corals. Find a way to up the export. Another skimmer, some deeper sand, more real live rock, a fuge are good natural methods. Do not underestimate how much not getting nitrogen to your corals can keep them from growing and looking good - it costs them a good deal of energy to convert no3 back to nitrogen for the micro algae to use and corals that are not thriving cannot do this well.

Okay thanks. My plan is to get some MicroBactr from brightwell and add that to help cure the rock faster. It’s been in my tank now for about a month and once it fully cures I planned to up the feeding again. Hopefully I’ll start seeing lower nutrient readings soon and I can go back to daily feedings. One question, would you say feeding half as often twice as much food is equivalent for coral nutrition?

 

[homer1475]

Heavy in, heavy out, is basically what JDA is saying.

Firm believer in this myself after seeing first hand how my tank turned around once I adopted this philosophy.

 

[jda]

Instead of spending so much on bottles and stuff, get a 20 pound rock kit from a gulf rock source... more kinds of bacteria in that.

What you need is for the inside of the rock to have the organics removed so that anoxic bacteria can develop and convert your no3 into n gas. This can take years with dry/dead rock. This happens in the sand too, and faster, if you have a few inches of it. Dry/dead rock tanks and tanks with shallow sand or no sand is very hard for this. If you get this sorted, the N will take care if it's self.

Then, you have to work on P, which is easier if you have a fuge to grow chaeto. If not, then some GFO or LC slowly applied can take care of this. Using GFO is no issue, but using it too fast certainly can be.

I feed my fish 5x a day mostly with pellets but also once with a large amount of frozen food... mysis or the reef blend from Brine Shrimp Direct. Sand, real live rock and a fuge keeps my N around .1 and P around 1-3 ppb. I have a fuge and chaeto grows like crazy, but I have to change water or dose iron to keep the chaeto going... of course, the water changes help everything. You have to prune back chaeto or else it will stop growing when it gets too dense.

 

[ekandler]

Heavy in, heavy out, is basically what JDA is saying.

Firm believer in this myself after seeing first hand how my tank turned around once I adopted this philosophy.

Yeah I’ve heard that before. would you say feeding half as often twice as much food is equivalent for coral nutrition?

 

[homer1475]

I saw a turn around in my tank when I went from one single large feeding a day, to 3 small feedings.

I feed 3 times a day. Once in the morning just after lights on with a mix of pellets. Again in the afternoon with a mix of pellets. The I feed live phyto, and a mix of frozen in the evening when I'm home.

Heavy in, heavy out. I run a skimmer, algae turf scrubber, socks, and carbon reactor for filtration. I maintain my tank right around 15 to 20 ppm nitrates, and 0.1 to 0.2 phosphates. I get the best coloration and growth from those residual numbers.

But as JDA also pointed out, I have a heavy bioload(fish) in my 80G cube that produce a ton of ammonia.

I have certainly seen a difference between when I have a small bioload(fish), to when I have what I like to call the sweet spot of bioload for my tank. I feed my fish heavily, and they produce a ton of ammonia which corals prefer over residual N and P.

 

[homer1475]

Maybe I missed it, but how old is this tank, and how was it started? Dry dead rock or actual live rock?

 

[ekandler]

Maybe I missed it, but how old is this tank, and how was it started? Dry dead rock or actual live rock?

It’s 2 years old now, 50% of the rock and sand is 3 years old that I moved in an upgrade. I added some sand when I upgraded 2 years ago and I recently (1ish month ago) pulled half my rock to replace it with new dry rock cause I had some encrusting corals taking over I wanted to get rid of.

I am aware that the new rock is going to cause some issues, but that behavior with my SPS I’ve been seeing since before the new rock.

 

[ekandler]

I saw a turn around in my tank when I went from one single large feeding a day, to 3 small feedings.

I feed 3 times a day. Once in the morning just after lights on with a mix of pellets. Again in the afternoon with a mix of pellets. The I feed live phyto, and a mix of frozen in the evening when I'm home.

Heavy in, heavy out. I run a skimmer, algae turf scrubber, socks, and carbon reactor for filtration. I maintain my tank right around 15 to 20 ppm nitrates, and 0.1 to 0.2 phosphates. I get the best coloration and growth from those residual numbers.

But as JDA also pointed out, I have a heavy bioload(fish) in my 80G cube that produce a ton of ammonia.

I have certainly seen a difference between when I have a small bioload(fish), to when I have what I like to call the sweet spot of bioload for my tank. I feed my fish heavily, and they produce a ton of ammonia which corals prefer over residual N and P.

Your corals are happy with phosphate in the 0.1-0.2 range? Whenever I ask around I always am told the 0.02-0.05 is best and I’ve read phosphate is poisonous in high concentrations. I have 15ish fish and in the past I’ve been able to feed daily without an issue but recently I’ve had to cut back, first from my refugium I forgot to trim and now my new rock. I’m happy to feed more, specifically if it’s pellets and not frozen cause frozen is a pain and I am not home enough to feed frozen multiple times a day.

 

[homer1475]

Yup all are healthy, colorful, and growing(minus polyp extension, but thats due to my wife absolutely NEEDING an angel lol)

This is just where my tank likes to sit. I can drive PO4 lower with gfo or lanthanum but why? Everything is happy and healthy.

I used to strive for lower numbers, and drove them too low causing massive die off and dino's.

FTS from the beginning of August, sorry nothing more recent then that on my phone:

 

[homer1475]

Keep in mind that FTS was after I tore down the tank in may and I chopped 90% of the SPS off the rocks, and threw it in the trash.

 

[ScottB]

Removing half your live rock and adding dead rock is unsettling for your biome for sure. Did you not see a fairly immediate drop in PO4 when you did that? Or did the new rock already have some PO4 bound up in it?

I would also check PAR as @jda says. Or better describe how many fixtures, height over the water & tank dimensions.

 

[ekandler]

Removing half your live rock and adding dead rock is unsettling for your biome for sure. Did you not see a fairly immediate drop in PO4 when you did that? Or did the new rock already have some PO4 bound up in it?

I would also check PAR as @jda says. Or better describe how many fixtures, height over the water & tank dimensions.

Nutrients did become more difficult to manage after the new rock was added.

for lighting it’s fairly standard. I have RMS mounts for two Gen 5 Radion XR30 blues. The spectrum is 100% everything blue/UV but red/green/white on 30%, at 35% intensity. I’ve done PAR testing in the past, 30% intensity at that location with the stylo/digi was 150, 40% intensity was 200, and 50% intensity was 260. I know that’s low, but the frag I got came from someone growing stuff in a frag tank with 90-100 PAR, so I didn’t want to blast it with 300 PAR.