STN from hell, please help

[DanTheReefer]

Still baffled with the $$ into everything you've been trying, why you haven't ruled out a contaminant, identified the known unknowns, or established a baseline via ICP.

Since your nitrates are now up, which were likely not the core issue to begin with, you could toss a hail Mary at a dose of biodigest. I agree with the others that you have a whole lot going on and letting the tank stabilize (doing nothing except WC) is best option.

I have 100 count of 500mg cipro/amox and im glad I didn't start lobbing that into my tank when the heavy metal issue showed up, which I would have never identified without ICP.

Thanks for reply, I did nothing except discontinue NoPox, slightly raise NO3 via NeoNitro, and 10% water changes for the first 42 days. I changed over 150% of the water. I caught the issue early when there was a barely visible shadow on a single colony. It wasn’t until >50% of the colonies were dead with many others on the way that I decided a more aggressive intervention was necessary. I have an ICP baseline from 6 months or so ago but I did not find it particularly useful because it only gives amount of individual elements - if I have a an organic toxin like coral warfare I wouldn’t know. To each their own, but to me it’s like a getting a blood test that tells you how much carbon is in your blood vs something more actionable like cholesterol. The water changes and carbon should have vast majority of issues covered which would be perceptible with ICP.

 

[Minifoot77]

lots and lots of sensitivity. If everyone has that much time. Go do a water change.

I dont do water changes tho...

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Thanks for reply, I did nothing except discontinue NoPox, slightly raise NO3 via NeoNitro, and 10% water changes for the first 42 days. I changed over 150% of the water. I caught the issue early when there was a barely visible shadow on a single colony. It wasn’t until >50% of the colonies were dead with many others on the way that I decided a more aggressive intervention was necessary. I have an ICP baseline from 6 months or so ago but I did not find it particularly useful because it only gives amount of individual elements - if I have a an organic toxin like coral warfare I wouldn’t know. To each their own, but to me it’s like a getting a blood test that tells you how much carbon is in your blood vs something more actionable like cholesterol. The water changes and carbon should have vast majority of issues covered which would be perceptible with ICP.

If you have a toxin, say copper, zinc, tin etc. or other heavy metal and you only do 10% WC it will remain a toxic level for a significant amount of time.

For instance if you have 50ug of tin and do 10% you have 45, 41.5, 38.5, etc. 50% WC youd have 25, 12.5, 6.25, etc. if you haven't addressed root cause it's likely that even 20% won't outcompete nor remove the issue to begin with.

Most common and toxic heavy metals do not get removed by carbon, I don't recall your tank having corals that shed, nor enough coral to actually pollute your water via warfare.

Best of luck to you on solving your issue.

 

[Jimbo327]

If this was my tank, I would do a 30% water change and run some carbon and GFO. You should target around 5-20 ppm nitrate and 0.6-0.2 ppm phosphates. How you want to lower nutrients is your choice. I would also take a look at your acros to make sure there isn't any pests like AEFW or tiny bugs. Once you have the nutrients stable and in range, then I would send in an ICP to look for any heavy metals (signs of rust or metal contamination) to rule out any broken equipment/magnets. I would not use any chemicals until I have ruled out all of the above.

I'm actually following this program on my own tank. I did a series of WC. My phosphates are high, and I'm lowering it now slowly. Once I'm done with that, it'll be ICP and then go from there.

 

[DanTheReefer]

If you read OPs post he discontinued nopox a month and a half ago. I guess let's keep throwing the kitchen sink, telling him to do what he already did, and guessing.

i guess while were at it, OP toss up a pic of how well the nitrate dosing, antibiotics and discontinued Nopox has worked.

The reef gods giveth and the reef gods taketh away

 

[Dburr1014]

So based on the information provided I suspect your issue is N deficiency:

I read recently that N deficiency leads to STN, just can’t find the actual post. But going from memory the coral is slowly digesting itself from lack of N.

Did you ever find this post/literature?
If like to read it.

 

[Dburr1014]

Let me educate you. When you ride the razors edge for Nitrate 0 to 5 and Phosphate (0.02 to 0.06 or so) and ONE little mistake happens, your done. A higher Nitrate provides balance for the system and causes no ill effects to the system.

I take no offense to what you said, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

This is anecdotal evidence and nothing else. Just your opinion.
Nothing wrong with your opinion.

My system does great on zero measurable no3. I made a mistake of trying to raise them. Maybe to fast? But even just trying to maintain <10 ppm has given me nothing but issues.

Dinos, no, nada. No evidence zero measurable no3 causes dinos.
My Monti cap that I've had for years went completly grey and died back. I have stopped dosing ammonium chloride and I have signs of it coming back, time will tell.

 

[Pod_01]

Did you ever find this post/literature?
If like to read it.

Yes I did, hope this works.

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Don't want to write a book about it on this great thread, but I have reduced it down to 17ug 3 weeks between ICP results. OK, thanks. IMO, that level is typically not high enough to be an issue in most cases, although tin is complicated as there are many chemical forms it might be, with...

www.reef2reef.com

Post 530
If not will try something else.

 

[Pod_01]

Did you ever find this post/literature?
If like to read it.

Just to add, zero or low NO3 (below 1 ppm) is indicator that the system might be low on N. If you have enough snails and fish you probably have enough N but no residual.

There are other articles that I read where it states NO3 is not preferred by corals but they can use it. Potentially it takes more energy/effort to use etc… But I am going by memory now…

 

[jeffyang]

You shouldn't have done carbon dosing with nearly 0 nitrates and a relatively high phosphate of 0.35ppm.

 

[DanTheReefer]

You shouldn't have done carbon dosing with nearly 0 nitrates and a relatively high phosphate of 0.35ppm.

Concur

 

[DanTheReefer]

This is anecdotal evidence and nothing else. Just your opinion.
Nothing wrong with your opinion.

My system does great on zero measurable no3. I made a mistake of trying to raise them. Maybe to fast? But even just trying to maintain <10 ppm has given me nothing but issues.

Dinos, no, nada. No evidence zero measurable no3 causes dinos.
My Monti cap that I've had for years went completly grey and died back. I have stopped dosing ammonium chloride and I have signs of it coming back, time will tell.

Yeah in my case I should have let it be. Turf algae could have been handled by an urchin. I think the carbon dosing stressed the corals by enabling the bacteria to suck out all of the nutrients. Suspect it also fueled a pathogenic bacteria that has been in the system for some time. And the combination of those brought about coral death.

Update for the day, started Cipro. Many have said it’s reserved for last ditch effort, I concur. This is my last ditch effort.

 

[Minifoot77]

Didn't the article about oxolinic acid come out in coral magazine this month as well?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

@DanTheReefer Are you still testing 0 on nitrate? Like you still haven't fixed that?

 

[DanTheReefer]

@DanTheReefer Are you still testing 0 on nitrate? Like you still haven't fixed that?

It’s about 10 ppm today

 

[DanTheReefer]

Didn't the article about oxolinic acid come out in coral magazine this month as well?

I heard about it on ReefBum and saw a video from Keith from a year or so ago… not sure what their source is

 

[Minifoot77]

I heard about it on ReefBum and saw a video from Keith from a year or so ago… not sure what their source is

Aci and a couple others put together an article on it and it was all hush hush for coral magazine...

 

[DanTheReefer]

Aci and a couple others put together an article on it and it was all hush hush for coral magazine...

yep! Yes sorry I wasn’t sure what their source of OA was, I can’t find any

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Remember that corals have a delayed response to stress. You mentioned many things that happened in addition to the initial crash of nitrates.

Large water changes – drastically shifts tank parameters and depletes DOC and nutrients
Use of ROX – Aggressive use can strip DOC and trace elements
Changes in alkalinity
Sudden changes in Phosphate from 0.350 to something lower
Sudden changes in Nitrate from 0 to 10ppm
Dosing antibiotics

Each change individually is capable of inducing STN / RTN.

In my opinion, the most important thing to do is to stabilize the parameters, and wait it out. Unfortunately the situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.

When I have an issue with SPS, I like to reset my parameters to my normal parameter setpoints, and go into what I call “Save Mode” with the following checklist:

4 to 5 20% water changes over a few days
Alk to 7.5
Nitrate to 5 ppm
Phosphate to 0.050 ppm
No GAC
No GFO
No UV
Reduce lighting to <300 PAR
Verify good 100x flow
Verify salt SG to 34-35 ppt
Verify temperature 79.5
ICP test
Verify no pests
Dose Acropower if corals appear to be starved
Dose vinegar 18 mL/100 gal if corals appear to be starved
If RTN, then frag off healthy tissue
Test, test, test, and keep everything rock stable
Continue moderate water changes as necessary

Your setpoints will likely be different, but you get the idea.

This video explains some thoughts about the complexity of bacterial infections in corals.

 

[Minifoot77]

yep! Yes sorry I wasn’t sure what their source of OA was, I can’t find any

I got mine from cascade koi but I don't know the whole tank protocol I should probably set my subscription back up