Stocking a 60g FOWLR

[Wandering Albatross]

Good morning all, as mentioned in a previous post, I’m planning potential stocking for a 20, 40, and 60g, focusing on the 60g. It’ll be intended as a fowlr, with the potential for a few weedy soft corals, and a small puffer (blue spot or Valentini) is a must. I’m looking for not-necessarily reef safe fish as tankmates. The following are some ideas I’m bouncing around.

Blue spot puffer (non-negotiable)
Flame angel or coral beauty
Some other dwarf angel
A butterfly of some kind
Dwarf lion
Scorpion or angler
Hawkfish
Hamlet
Grouper
Midsize wrasse
Other small fish that are on the aggressive side
Some small/midsized eel if space permits
Pair of maroon clowns
A grazing fish would be great

Obviously not all these would fit in a 60g 4ft at the same time. I want to focus on fish I can’t keep in my 150 reef, because of risk to coral, inverts, or other fish. I’m reposting this here to make it easier for people to find to help me brainstorm.
Anyone want to offer a potential stocking list based off the above fish?

 

[bushdoc]

I would eliminate angler or scorpionfish, they basically belong to species tank and would devour most if not all inhabitants.
Grouper is probably to big even for 60 gal.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I would eliminate angler or scorpionfish, they basically belong to species tank and would devour most if not all inhabitants.
Grouper is probably to big even for 60 gal.

Figured grouper would have to wait for the big-big tank.

I was on the fence about the angler family, cool as some of them look, something more interactive would be better. I just added them as a possibility.

Got any recommendations on what on the list could go with the puffer?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Bump

 

[00W]

Good morning all, as mentioned in a previous post, I’m planning potential stocking for a 20, 40, and 60g, focusing on the 60g. It’ll be intended as a fowlr, with the potential for a few weedy soft corals, and a small puffer (blue spot or Valentini) is a must. I’m looking for not-necessarily reef safe fish as tankmates. The following are some ideas I’m bouncing around.

Blue spot puffer (non-negotiable)
Flame angel or coral beauty
Some other dwarf angel
A butterfly of some kind
Dwarf lion
Scorpion or angler
Hawkfish
Hamlet
Grouper
Midsize wrasse
Other small fish that are on the aggressive side
Some small/midsized eel if space permits
Pair of maroon clowns
A grazing fish would be great

Obviously not all these would fit in a 60g 4ft at the same time. I want to focus on fish I can’t keep in my 150 reef, because of risk to coral, inverts, or other fish. I’m reposting this here to make it easier for people to find to help me brainstorm.
Anyone want to offer a potential stocking list based off the above fish?

Flame or coral beauty would be fine, either/or not both.
Both are aggressive.
Valentini puffers are great fish but slow moving and can't defend themselves well so stay away from fin nippers and extremely aggressive eaters.
When I kept puffers I'd have the tank just for them.
I had a 60 with a valentini and a Scopus.
That was it.
A Flame hawkfish would be OK, kind of a jerk and a jumper but lots of personality and no threat to the puffer.
Maroon clowns won't bother the puffer but might take a bite out of your hand instead.
Whatever you do add your most aggressive fish last.
Good luck.
Joel

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Flame or coral beauty would be fine, either/or not both.
Both are aggressive.
Valentini puffers are great fish but slow moving and can't defend themselves well so stay away from fin nippers and extremely aggressive eaters.
When I kept puffers I'd have the tank just for them.
I had a 60 with a valentini and a Scopus.
That was it.
A Flame hawkfish would be OK, kind of a jerk and a jumper but lots of personality and no threat to the puffer.
Maroon clowns won't bother the puffer but might take a bite out of your hand instead.
Whatever you do add your most aggressive fish last.
Good luck.
Joel

The puffer is intended as the primary fish, all others are to add extra personality to the tank and allow me a few more fish that I can't trust in my reef. Any chance I could swing 2 blue spots if added tiny and together? Could I do a pair of one of those angels, or is a 4' too small to pair them? As a much smaller and more limited stocking than my 150, I can afford to really specialize space for each species.

I'm thinking maybe the puffer, a hawkfish pair, the maroon clown pair and a nem for them, at least one of the dwarf angels but 2 would be ideal, and either a smaller/midsized wrasse like melalunas or a couple dottybacks. Much as I want a lion I think he'd eat everyone or get picked at. Hamlets I have very little information on.

Would a decent, non-invert grazer fit in here? I know it's tight for a tang, and most foxface, but I don't know if a blenny or 2 would be enough to keep the rock clean. Figured the puffer would eat even a large urchin, turbo, or star.

 

[00W]

Sorry I get a bit busy.
Smaller puffer will be okay somewhat with snails until they get bigger.
I'd give mine spare shells to chew on when he got bigger but he'd munch smaller snails like margaritas like candy.
Never touched my urchin
It's really up to you on stocking numbers, I'm a HUGE proponent of as few fish as possible.
I don't like dottybacks at all.
Terrible disposition, hide constantly and mean as h3ll but I guess for an aggressive fowlr you're OK there, just don't expect to see them.
ONLY ONE ANGEL, tank is just too small for 2 and those guys will use every inch of the space.
If it were mine 2 do I'd go for a pair of tomato clowns, flame angel and the puffer with 50 pounds or more live rock and very coarse sand for the puffer to chew.
As soon as algae got going, 2 or 3 very large turbos.
Have fun!
Joel

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Sorry I get a bit busy.
Smaller puffer will be okay somewhat with snails until they get bigger.
I'd give mine spare shells to chew on when he got bigger but he'd munch smaller snails like margaritas like candy.
Never touched my urchin
It's really up to you on stocking numbers, I'm a HUGE proponent of as few fish as possible.
I don't like dottybacks at all.
Terrible disposition, hide constantly and mean as h3ll but I guess for an aggressive fowlr you're OK there, just don't expect to see them.
ONLY ONE ANGEL, tank is just too small for 2 and those guys will use every inch of the space.
If it were mine 2 do I'd go for a pair of tomato clowns, flame angel and the puffer with 50 pounds or more live rock and very coarse sand for the puffer to chew.
As soon as algae got going, 2 or 3 very large turbos.
Have fun!
Joel

I was considering a couple of the larger turbos if I risk snails, I have 4 in my 150 that are about the size of golf balls and if the puffer should only max out at 4" I thought they might be safe. I could put them in first too so they are kinda just part of the tank if that might help? Same with an urchin. The puffer would also be given clams to chew on.

I have a pair of orchids in my reef, and they are pretty well mannered to each other and their tankmates, at least for me. Little snippy for the first week or so together, but they've since established their ranks and settled in. I wonder if the tank size helped with their temperament at all. They are often out swimming in an improvised school with everyone else, they are supposed to be the more peaceful dottybacks though, so I thought the others might be better suited for this tank. Might have observed some breeding behaviors too. Was thinking a pair of neons, as this is designed to be a more aggressive tank. Don't want constant violence, but I want everyone sturdy enough to hold their own if needed.

I set up my 150 reef to be very full of small, mostly passive/neutral fish, as reefs are crowded places. And as the coral grows out it'll open up much more real estate for settlement. This tank I'm planning a smaller more specialized stock, that are more territorial or just aggressive in general, but I want the tank to 'appear' full, each level of the tank is someone's home. I may have access to an additional 20-25g as well, but I worry that'd be too tight for a pair of maroons and a nem, as I'm partial to maroons over skunks, and no one else on my list really fits. I'm trying to maximize who I can have while minimizing risk. Was thinking 6-8 small to mid-sized fish, maybe 10 depending on what it is, plus a couple large, harder to snack on inverts.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Here’s the dottybacks ready for lunch.

 

[00W]

Here’s the dottybacks ready for lunch.

Nice!
Sounds like you have a great handle on things!
Your posts are well written and it seems like you've done your research.
Somewhat a rarity these days.
I like the maroons and have had good luck with them, tomatoes being somewhat more aggressive but I've had some pretty mean maroons over the years.
Like I said I go for as few fish as possible.
I only have 2 in a hundred gallon but I think your plan is well thought out.
I've never had a nice dottyback so I'm jealous.
If you want a beautiful, interesting and smart yet mean dotty try a sunrise if you can find one.
Keep me updated.
Joel

 

[00W]

Here’s the dottybacks ready for lunch.

Nice!
Sounds like you have a great handle on things!
Your posts are well written and it seems like you've done your research.
Somewhat a rarity these days.
I like the maroons and have had good luck with them, tomatoes being somewhat more aggressive but I've had some pretty mean maroons over the years.
Like I said I go for as few fish as possible.
I only have 2 in a hundred gallon but I think your plan is well thought out.
I've never had a nice dottyback so I'm jealous.
If you want a beautiful, interesting and smart yet mean dotty try a sunrise if you can find one.
Keep me updated.
Joel

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Nice!
Sounds like you have a great handle on things!
Your posts are well written and it seems like you've done your research.
Somewhat a rarity these days.
I like the maroons and have had good luck with them, tomatoes being somewhat more aggressive but I've had some pretty mean maroons over the years.
Like I said I go for as few fish as possible.
I only have 2 in a hundred gallon but I think your plan is well thought out.
I've never had a nice dottyback so I'm jealous.
If you want a beautiful, interesting and smart yet mean dotty try a sunrise if you can find one.
Keep me updated.
Joel

Oh thank you! Normally I'm told I think too much. I want to look at every possible angle in every scenario, overprepared vs underprepared whenever possible, that's just how I'm programmed, so it's nice to hear that some people still appreciate it.

I feel lucky having such a well-mannered dotty, compared to some of what I've heard about them. I was most worried that they'd fight with the royal gramma pair, but they all do great. The one has a crevice that he squeezes into and guards, in the center of a brs dry rock chunk about 8lbs. (BRS I'll be ordering more when this tank comes in!) Lately he's been dancing around the female, and they both ended up in there together for a spell. They seem to like really narrow places in the rock itself over the 20+ caves I tried to make between the rocks. The grammas both live in a rock as well, with the female grammas rock right next to the dottyback rock. She gets more snippy than either orchid, but even then, it's just a 'get off my lawn' moment, no contact. The orchids were added later in the stocking, and I noticed some snippiness from other fish reduced with every new neighbor added, with very few exceptions. All the movement I think largely distracts or entertains those marginally problematic fish.

I'll look into a sunrise, I'm a huge fan of bright colors and striking patterns, for any tank type. One of the reasons I'm still considering at least a pair of smaller wrasse, fairies or maybe one melalunas. I have 2 and a half pairs now. Established male ornate and a female half his size who swim together, ruby finned fairy terminal male, and his healthy mate, and I had 2 canarytop wrasse, but I think they both came in as males, and worse one shipped poorly.

Christmas is coming, best time of year ever, fingers crossed! Don't know yet how I'll transport these when I can finally afford to move out. Shame how expensive homes are lately, making reefing look cheap. I'll probably look like a wrasse who went carpet surfing by the time I can afford to move...

Morgan

 

[00W]

Oh thank you! Normally I'm told I think too much. I want to look at every possible angle in every scenario, overprepared vs underprepared whenever possible, that's just how I'm programmed, so it's nice to hear that some people still appreciate it.

I feel lucky having such a well-mannered dotty, compared to some of what I've heard about them. I was most worried that they'd fight with the royal gramma pair, but they all do great. The one has a crevice that he squeezes into and guards, in the center of a brs dry rock chunk about 8lbs. (BRS I'll be ordering more when this tank comes in!) Lately he's been dancing around the female, and they both ended up in there together for a spell. They seem to like really narrow places in the rock itself over the 20+ caves I tried to make between the rocks. The grammas both live in a rock as well, with the female grammas rock right next to the dottyback rock. She gets more snippy than either orchid, but even then, it's just a 'get off my lawn' moment, no contact. The orchids were added later in the stocking, and I noticed some snippiness from other fish reduced with every new neighbor added, with very few exceptions. All the movement I think largely distracts or entertains those marginally problematic fish.

I'll look into a sunrise, I'm a huge fan of bright colors and striking patterns, for any tank type. One of the reasons I'm still considering at least a pair of smaller wrasse, fairies or maybe one melalunas. I have 2 and a half pairs now. Established male ornate and a female half his size who swim together, ruby finned fairy terminal male, and his healthy mate, and I had 2 canarytop wrasse, but I think they both came in as males, and worse one shipped poorly.

Christmas is coming, best time of year ever, fingers crossed! Don't know yet how I'll transport these when I can finally afford to move out. Shame how expensive homes are lately, making reefing look cheap. I'll probably look like a wrasse who went carpet surfing by the time I can afford to move...

Morgan

Very well written post.
Nice to meet someone who cares and is saltwater informed, seems like you care a great deal and that warms my heart.
Nothing wrong with thinking too much in this hobby. Better to do that and avoid disaster than end up with disappointment and heartache, having our livestock suffer unnecessarily and our wallets suffer too lol.
You can always find me on the Smorgasbord, along with a collection of the best reefers on r2r or anywhere for that matter.
Everything goes there so you can over ask or over share and we're always there to help.
Look forward to talking more.
Peace
Joel

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Follow up question, anyone kept a red scooter dagonet with a blue spot puffer, or a coral beauty for that matter? Trying to decide on something that adds a little red to the tank, and I though the dragonet will stay down at the bottom and not offend anyone. Is the puffer likely to be too nippy? It's that or a ruby finned wrasse, as an alternative to flame hawkfish, as I've been doing more research and run into quite a few reports of hawkfish in general being jerks and trying to eat smaller fish, even when they're only 4" themselves.

Thoughts?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Also, I know stars are at risk around most puffers, but if the puffer was chill or it ignored the star, would a sand sifting star go after any of its tankmates? I’m most concerned about any sand-sleeping wrasse, or potentially a bottom dwelling dragonet. I’m erring on the thought that my CUC options are limited with a puffer, and my sand based alternative is a diamond goby. I wasn’t sure if either one would do well long term in a 4ft 60g, even with supplemental feeding. I’ll be attempting a couple jumbo turbos, may try a couple larger hermits, and might even try an urchin, still debating. But with limited grazers I’m trying to find any suitable scavenger to get the worst leftovers before they help grow algae forests.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Well instead of a 60g, they got me a 75g, (48”x12”x20”), and a nice looking stand! I may very well be able to reassess my stocking ideas with that extra space. Stand has room to upgrade too.

Time to calculate out my sand and rock, and get this thing cycling! So exciting

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Very well written post.
Nice to meet someone who cares and is saltwater informed, seems like you care a great deal and that warms my heart.
Nothing wrong with thinking too much in this hobby. Better to do that and avoid disaster than end up with disappointment and heartache, having our livestock suffer unnecessarily and our wallets suffer too lol.
You can always find me on the Smorgasbord, along with a collection of the best reefers on r2r or anywhere for that matter.
Everything goes there so you can over ask or over share and we're always there to help.
Look forward to talking more.
Peace
Joel

I’ve heard that a fox face can sometimes be a buffer for tang aggression because of its spines. Do you have an opinion/experience with a one spot fox face in this role?

If so, does it buffer aggression of other species too? Does it become a peace-enforcing tank boss, assuming it was the largest fish in there?

Since this is a semi aggressive tank, would a damsel fit with my proposed stocking from an aggression standpoint? Do damsels attack everyone, similarly colored or shaped fish, or only fish near its cave? Would they be too much for anyone in this tank? Do they have to be solo, or can they coexist in a group like chromis, or if they can’t be with their own kind, do several different colored damsels allow several to tolerate each other?

 

[00W]

I’ve heard that a fox face can sometimes be a buffer for tang aggression because of its spines. Do you have an opinion/experience with a one spot fox face in this role?

If so, does it buffer aggression of other species too? Does it become a peace-enforcing tank boss, assuming it was the largest fish in there?

Since this is a semi aggressive tank, would a damsel fit with my proposed stocking from an aggression standpoint? Do damsels attack everyone, similarly colored or shaped fish, or only fish near its cave? Would they be too much for anyone in this tank? Do they have to be solo, or can they coexist in a group like chromis, or if they can’t be with their own kind, do several different colored damsels allow several to tolerate each other?

I have never had a foxface so I can't speak on that.
Sometimes tangs appear aggressive when in fact they are being defensive, in an aggressive manner.
Most are territorial to a fault and some are assertive without intent to do harm.
And some are just plain mean and aggressive.
I've only kept one per tank in my career, no matter how big a tank I've had.
As far as damsels go, I've only kept the little domino damsels and I've kept them in 3's a couple of times.
They're mainly into each other, at least these guys were.
I did this twice, two different tanks, and each time, there was only one left in the end.
Have fun.
Joel

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I have never had a foxface so I can't speak on that.
Sometimes tangs appear aggressive when in fact they are being defensive, in an aggressive manner.
Most are territorial to a fault and some are assertive without intent to do harm.
And some are just plain mean and aggressive.
I've only kept one per tank in my career, no matter how big a tank I've had.
As far as damsels go, I've only kept the little domino damsels and I've kept them in 3's a couple of times.
They're mainly into each other, at least these guys were.
I did this twice, two different tanks, and each time, there was only one left in the end.
Have fun.
Joel

I’m not sure why the tomini is such an issue, he was supposed to be smaller and less aggressive, comparatively speaking. He’s gone after blue/green chromis, disbar anthias (but left purple queens alone…), both tailspot and flametail blennies, watchman gobies and sifter gobies. I thought it was an odd assortment. He’s super fat and eats really well, but I only got him for utility purposes, not to pin anthias in a cave and batter them against the rocks.

Who else was in with the dominos? Do you think it’s possible that having larger, more intimidating or aggressive tankmates might encourage the dominos (or any damsel) to tolerate its own kind for the sake of ‘safety in numbers’?

 

[00W]

I’m not sure why the tomini is such an issue, he was supposed to be smaller and less aggressive, comparatively speaking. He’s gone after blue/green chromis, disbar anthias (but left purple queens alone…), both tailspot and flametail blennies, watchman gobies and sifter gobies. I thought it was an odd assortment. He’s super fat and eats really well, but I only got him for utility purposes, not to pin anthias in a cave and batter them against the rocks.

Who else was in with the dominos? Do you think it’s possible that having larger, more intimidating or aggressive tankmates might encourage the dominos (or any damsel) to tolerate its own kind for the sake of ‘safety in numbers’?

That's an intelligent and interesting question .
Never thought about it really.
One tank they were in with a flame angel and a maroon clowns, both two of the most aggressive fish I've ever had.
It slowly went from 3 to one domino but neither of the other two tolerated the damsels.
Maybe that answers that question???
The other tank they were in with a Scopus and a niger trigger. Neither of those fish cared much about the damsels, except at feeding time.
As far as the tomini, I mean, it's a tang and they can be bullies, even the ones supposedly the most docile.
The most docile tang I ever had was a blue eyed kole.
I never once saw that guy do anything but eat.
Joel