Tell me why I shouldn’t carbon dose

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Post in thread 'Nitrate removal without phosphates.'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrate-removal-without-phosphates.979621/post-11284176

This post says zero about LC.
Lanthanum chloride is NOT a carbon source like vinegar and vodka.

 

[liddojunior]

First I've heard of LC doing anything substantial for nitrates...
Do you have any sources?
(not arguing, just curious )

The article BRS made is a good summary: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...-carbon-dosing-breakdown-why-and-how-to-do-it

But basically the entire point of carbon dosing is that Carbon Nitrate and Phosphates maintain a consistent ratio to each other. So if you increase the carbon, which is what is considered to be in short supply in home reefs, you will force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean. Typically it means that you are going to balance the nutrients by reducing them, and they will reduce together, it won't be one or the other.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

The article BRS made is a good summary: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...-carbon-dosing-breakdown-why-and-how-to-do-it

But basically the entire point of carbon dosing is that Carbon Nitrate and Phosphates maintain a consistent ratio to each other. So if you increase the carbon, which is what is considered to be in short supply in home reefs, you will force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean. Typically it means that you are going to balance the nutrients by reducing them, and they will reduce together, it won't be one or the other.

But LC is not used for carbon dosing!!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

The article BRS made is a good summary: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...-carbon-dosing-breakdown-why-and-how-to-do-it

But basically the entire point of carbon dosing is that Carbon Nitrate and Phosphates maintain a consistent ratio to each other. So if you increase the carbon, which is what is considered to be in short supply in home reefs, you will force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean. Typically it means that you are going to balance the nutrients by reducing them, and they will reduce together, it won't be one or the other.

And I understand the concept of carbon dosing, although the "forcing the system to go into the ratio found in the ocean" part is wrong... but that's another thread, lol

 

[immo]

I'm not trying to be difficult, but you're asking for advice so I'm trying to help.

I understand that, and I don’t mean to contadict. It’s just that based on what I’ve read, LC will reduce nitrates with the use of a skimmer. Which I can’t personally confirm, because I haven’t done it. I do however appreciate you, and everyone else that has replied, and offered advice. I don’t know, and I don’t understand it all, hence why I ask. I have so far done the best I know to do to keep my nutrients at bay, and for the most part it seems that I’ve been in line with what everyone recommends aside from changing my floss more often. I want to continually get better, and do better. My reading led me to this question. I’m not set on dosing, I just want to know if it is a reasonable and viable option.

 

[immo]

But LC is not used for carbon dosing!!

Liquid carbon? Or do I have my abbreviations messed up?

 

[gbroadbridge]

So. I have a Deskmate (4.8 gallon) that I have had set up coming up on 4 months. I know that this is generally considered “too early” to carbon dose. As a new reefer I don’t really understand why that is. My no3 runs 40-50 per week before my roughly 50% water change (my math assumes a 20 ppm nitrate after water change). I want to reduce my water change, but I’m not opposed to continuing what I’m doing currently. Nonetheless my phosphate stays pretty constant at 0.03 and I was running a phosguard packet, and have just switched it out for the chemipure blue nano, and I’m running a reef glass skimmer with a very wet skim mate (I’m not getting much removed in my skim mate I do not believe, it is only very slightly green). The tank only has a small clown fish, but a fair amount of corals - a small acan colony (10-12 heads guessing) 2 lepto frags, a cyphastrea frag, a ricordea, a Rhodactis, 4 heads of candy cane, and a gsp on the back wall. I know that I’m going to be told that I shouldn’t carbon dose, and it’s not that I disagree, I just don’t understand why, or what else I can do to reduce my nitrate increase weekly. I have a fair amount of rock for the size of tank, and more bio media in the back, so I do not see that as being a limiting factor. Thoughts?

Here's a simple answer.

In an immature tank there is very little biodiversity, nor is there normally a large population of coral, fish and microbes.

Carbon dosing does feed the desired bacterial population, however there are plenty of other organisms who also consume carbon, and many of them you don't want to increase beyond the capability of the other inhabitants to keep under control.

Some of those, including a few types of unwanted dinoflagellates can be very difficult to get back under control once they get hold.

You are playing with fire - it may work out, or you could end up with something that forces a tank reboot.

Your choice whether that is worth the risk.

 

[liddojunior]

But LC is not used for carbon dosing!!

Sorry, okay now you've lost me. The post is him asking if he should carbon dose or how to carbon dose.
I'm just here to tell him his nitrates are fine if his tank is doing great. And he should just change his water change schedule by testing to see how his parameters change by doing that.

I think you think he means LC as lanthanum chloride, which is only for phosphates. I just assumed he meant LC to mean liquid carbon solution

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Liquid carbon? Or do I have my abbreviations messed up?

Lanthanum chloride.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Sorry, okay now you've lost me. The post is him asking if he should carbon dose or how to carbon dose.
I'm just here to tell him his nitrates are fine if his tank is doing great. And he should just change his water change schedule by testing to see how his parameters change by doing that.

I think you think he means LC as lanthanum chloride, which is only for phosphates. I just assumed he meant LC to mean liquid carbon solution

Yep.
Thanks.

 

[liddojunior]

Here's a simple answer.

In an immature tank there is very little biodiversity, nor is there normally a large population of coral, fish and microbes.

Carbon dosing does feed the desired bacterial population, however there are plenty of other organisms who also consume carbon, and many of them you don't want to increase beyond the capability of the other inhabitants to keep under control.

Some of those, including a few types of unwanted dinoflagellates can be very difficult to get back under control once they get hold.

You are playing with fire - it may work out, or you could end up with something that forces a tank reboot.

Your choice whether that is worth the risk.

I agree with this, the idea of carbon dosing sounds cool so he is considering it. Honestly it can just make more work and a headache for him to learn how to carbon dose if his goal is just less water changes

 

[liddojunior]

Yep.
Thanks.

Yeah understandable, I just went by the post title and figured out what he actually means when using the wrong abrev

 

[immo]

Here's a simple answer.

In an immature tank there is very little biodiversity, nor is there normally a large population of coral, fish and microbes.

Carbon dosing does feed the desired bacterial population, however there are plenty of other organisms who also consume carbon, and many of them you don't want to increase beyond the capability of the other inhabitants to keep under control.

Some of those, including a few types of unwanted dinoflagellates can be very difficult to get back under control once they get hold.

You are playing with fire - it may work out, or you could end up with something that forces a tank reboot.

Your choice whether that is worth the risk.

Very much the answer I was looking for. I do (did) not understand the risk involved - the “why”.

 

[immo]

Sorry, okay now you've lost me. The post is him asking if he should carbon dose or how to carbon dose.
I'm just here to tell him his nitrates are fine if his tank is doing great. And he should just change his water change schedule by testing to see how his parameters change by doing that.

I think you think he means LC as lanthanum chloride, which is only for phosphates. I just assumed he meant LC to mean liquid carbon solution

Yes, I meant liquid carbon not lanthanum chloride. Perhaps I had my abbreviations messed up. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[immo]

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate everyone’s response, and advice. I’ll read on lanthanum chloride (to hopefully gain more understanding of it, and how I could have caused some confusion). I’ll weigh my options between continuing my water changes as is, and possibly stretching them out. I have also considered small water changes daily as someone suggested (I’m sorry to not link you or your post, I’m on my iPad), my only limiting factor with that has been that I use coral pro salt, and the pH seems to drop pretty bad when setting in a bucket.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I meant liquid carbon not lanthanum chloride. Perhaps I had my abbreviations messed up. Sorry for the confusion.

I would not recommend ever using that abbreviation, or the term liquid carbon. Not all organic carbon dosing is liquid anyway.

I advise to call it organic carbon, but what you dose may matter and one should not assume that all possible chemicals to use are interchangeable.

IMO, carbon dosing can be a desirable thing to do, even if nutrient reduction is not the primary goal, due to increased bacteria feeding of filter feeders.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The article BRS made is a good summary: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...-carbon-dosing-breakdown-why-and-how-to-do-it

But basically the entire point of carbon dosing is that Carbon Nitrate and Phosphates maintain a consistent ratio to each other. So if you increase the carbon, which is what is considered to be in short supply in home reefs, you will force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean. Typically it means that you are going to balance the nutrients by reducing them, and they will reduce together, it won't be one or the other.

As others have noted, organic carbon dosing does not "force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean".

In a simpler and more appropriate way of thinking, the organic carbon is food for many organisms, including bacteria, but potentially also including larger organisms such as corals and sponges. That allows two possible things to happen:

1. Bacteria and another other organisms can grow faster, using more N and P, and thereby reducing those in a way proportion to what they contain in their bodies.

2. Certain organisms in low O2 regions may carry our a process called denitrification, which reduces nitrate but does not impact phosphate.

 

[immo]

As others have noted, organic carbon dosing does not "force the system to go to the ratio found in the ocean".

In a simpler and more appropriate way of thinking, the organic carbon is food for many organisms, including bacteria, but potentially also including larger organisms such as corals and sponges. That allows two possible things to happen:

1. Bacteria and another other organisms can grow faster, using more N and P, and thereby reducing those in a way proportion to what they contain in their bodies.

2. Certain organisms in low O2 regions may carry our a process called denitrification, which reduces nitrate but does not impact phosphate.

Would you also agree that dosing organic carbon in said system would not be a good idea at this time?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you monitor N and P and skim, I do not see a concern with organic carbon dosing.

 

[immo]

If you monitor N and P and skim, I do not see a concern with organic carbon dosing.

Should I check levels daily to begin with, I assume? Vinegar would be the 'safest' form of organic carbon?