Throw in the towel....or wait?

[Ed olson]

Hopefully this post isn't too long winded but there are multiple factors here that may need addressing.
I'm having an issue with cloudy water, to the point that you can't see more than a couple inches or so into the tank. The cloud is white and not green. So to start off I'll post tank and params.
100g total volume
Salinity 1.024
pH 8.25
Alk 9.5
Calcium 350
Mag 900-1000
Nitrate 1
Phosphate 0
Diablo XS160 skimmer
Dual Icecap 2k gyres
14 frags
Naso Tang
Coral Beauty
2 clowns
5 chromis
Was feeding Hikari pellets, New Life Spectrum, pellets, mysis, nori, and Reef Frenzy all sparingly and only as much as the fish would eat in a few minutes. I went to feeding every 3-4 days once this all started.

Here's the story. A few weeks back I started noticing a brown'ish substance growing on the rocks. This substance was unlike anything I have seen and have yet to identify what exactly it is. Some said dinos, others said bacteria.

New item by Ed Olson

photos.app.goo.gl

A couple weeks after it showed up the water started getting cloudy. Not too bad at first, but after a couple days it was full blown. I tried blowing some of the rock off with a turkey baster and only the loose pieces came off. It was a little slimy to the touch.
MY first reaction was let nature takes it's course but I after a few days it stayed the same. I have not done a water change since it started as some have stated to let it be and that changing water wouldn't really do much.
My first course of action was to hit it with some Seachem Clarity. Two doses as a matter of fact, 24 hours apart. No change.
Next I tried some Matrix carbon in a mesh bag sitting inside the filter sock. After a couple days still no change.
This is when I decided to let nature take its course. But after a week or so I couldn't stand it any longer, I had to try something else.
So I bought a 13w in-tank sterilizer. 395gph max flow. Installed it and after a couple days there was no real change, maybe a very slight increase in visibility, but barely.
My next, and last try at a solution was to run some DE in a Marineland polishing filter. That was yesterday and still no change as of this morning.
I'm really at my wits end here and have considered on one or two occasions to just throw in the towel, but part of me says that at some point "this too shall pass" and to not give up.
Here's my theories.
1. Magnesium is too low and I'm seeing calcium come out of solution. However, I'm not getting a white film on the glass or overflow which I know is a tell-tale sign of a calcium precipitation event. Seeing as how Magnesium is a the glue between Alk and Calcium I figured my low mag was causing the cloudiness.
2. If, in fact, the brown stuff on the rocks is bacteria, and I blew some off that the gyres caught some of it, chewed it up, and the released the bacteria into the water column.
3. I have noticed that some of this brown stuff has started to go away and that the cloudiness is just part of that process of the die off.
It may be none or all of these things combined. So at this point I'm trying to decide what to do next, if anything. Here's what I consider my options to be:
1. Remove the UV and the DE filter and do nothing.
2. Leave the UV and DE in and do nothing.
3. Start dosing the Red Sead Mg I bought to raise the level and see if it really is a calcium precipitation.
4. Do a big water change in conjuction with number 1, 2, and/or 3 or just a stand alone water change.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[brandon429]

removed

 

[Ed olson]

If I'm reading this correctly your suggestion is to break it down, clean the rocks and tank, and set it all back up again?

 

[brandon429]

removed

 

[Staghorn]

Any idea what led to this event? I experienced something similar in the past and I’m pretty sure I know what triggered it because it happened twice. I won’t comment here on what it was yet because I would like to see if there was anything that may have caused it in your opinion?

 

[Ed olson]

Here's a video..

 

[brandon429]

removed

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I have no idea whats wrong but I would suggest some old fashioned reef-keeping; rely on water changes and patience. Stop chasing numbers and parameters and stop dosing different chemicals. Good luck.

 

[Ed olson]

Any idea what led to this event? I experienced something similar in the past and I’m pretty sure I know what triggered it because it happened twice. I won’t comment here on what it was yet because I would like to see if there was anything that may have caused it in your opinion?

I really have no idea to he honest. The only thing I can think of was that I stopped using filter socks and poly fil for a few days. Once I noticed the cloudiness I went back to polyfil. I'm curious as to what happened in your instance and how it was resolved if at all.

 

[Ed olson]

My rocks are three pillar structures. Removing them would remove about 1/3 of the filtration at a time.
I'm not sure that with my work schedule I have the time to perform such a drastic cleaning.
Here is a video of the same rock in the video as it is today. As you can see its losing its color and starting to release from the rock work.

 

[mdb_talon]

I have no idea whats wrong but I would suggest some old fashioned reef-keeping; rely on water changes and patience. Stop chasing numbers and parameters and stop dosing different chemicals. Good luck.

Haha how "old fashioned" are we going back? I been in the hobby a really long time and cant remember when it was not about chasing numbers. Biggest difference is it is much easier today to know more accurately what our numbers are.

Not that I see that as a bad thing though. When people talk fondly of "old fashioned" reefing I think they forget (or were not around) that 30 years ago the vast majority of reef tanks were failures over any significant period of time.

 

[blasterman]

Can't tell by the pic if its dinos or diatoms or a relative of dinos. Dinos tend to be slimy and have bubbles. Diatoms are more uniform and will also grow on glass. Diatoms are a new tank syndrome nuisance and will go away. Dinos wont.

I have reservations about pulling rock and cleaning it. It won't solve dinos or diatoms. Water changes will make things worse because they will lower nutrient which are already in perfect dino zone.

A 13watt UV filter is pretty small for that tank. I use a 25 watt on a 20gal for occasional maintenance. I also doubt the 395 spec. A 13watt UV filter to work properly should have a trickle of water running through it. The fact it's not clearing a basic water algae bloom says its not working properly.

Also, your low water nutrient levels are begging for dinos. Nitrate should at least be 5 to 10.

 

[schuby]

I have more questions. How old is this tank? Are you dosing Alk and/or Calcium?

If you are dosing Calcium with such low Mg, then it is likely precipitating out immediately, making your water white. Adequate Mg levels are required for the super-saturated Ca levels that we want in our tanks.

Here's a link to basic param levels with details and explanations that I've referenced many, many times: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

 

[schuby]

Another critical thing is we never want to have zero phosphate or zero nitrate in our tanks. Bad things happen such as dinos. You listed your phosphate at zero and said you've greatly reduced feeding. This is not a good place to be.

I'd guess that the brown stuff and the cloudy, white water are two, separate issues. Reef tanks are very complex with many interdepencies. If we overreact to an issue, we can easily cause new issues and not remedy the original issue.

I didn't notice if you said that you started with live rock or dry rock. The brown stuff may be a feature of some live rock and may be harmless, just unusual.

Personally, I'm not in favor of rip cleans. If you can't determine the cause of an issue, what is to stop it from happening again? IMO, repeated rip cleans only prevent a tank from maturing, due to so much disruption of the biodiversity, especially at the microbial-level.

 

[brandon429]

edit

 

[brandon429]

removed

 

[Ed olson]

Haha how "old fashioned" are we going back? I been in the hobby a really long time and cant remember when it was not about chasing numbers. Biggest difference is it is much easier today to know more accurately what our numbers are.

Not that I see that as a bad thing though. When people talk fondly of "old fashioned" reefing I think they forget (or were not around) that 30 years ago the vast majority of reef tanks were failures over any significant period of time.

I totally get what is meant by "old fashioned".

Can't tell by the pic if its dinos or diatoms or a relative of dinos. Dinos tend to be slimy and have bubbles. Diatoms are more uniform and will also grow on glass. Diatoms are a new tank syndrome nuisance and will go away. Dinos wont.

I have reservations about pulling rock and cleaning it. It won't solve dinos or diatoms. Water changes will make things worse because they will lower nutrient which are already in perfect dino zone.

A 13watt UV filter is pretty small for that tank. I use a 25 watt on a 20gal for occasional maintenance. I also doubt the 395 spec. A 13watt UV filter to work properly should have a trickle of water running through it. The fact it's not clearing a basic water algae bloom says its not working properly.

Also, your low water nutrient levels are begging for dinos. Nitrate should at least be 5 to 10.

I will turn the UV flow down and see if that helps. I'm pretty sure I had dinos already. Brownish rust colored mucus algae with bubbles in it. It's all gone and this brown stuff has taken over. It's only on the rocks.

I have more questions. How old is this tank? Are you dosing Alk and/or Calcium?

If you are dosing Calcium with such low Mg, then it is likely precipitating out immediately, making your water white. Adequate Mg levels are required for the super-saturated Ca levels that we want in our tanks.

Here's a link to basic param levels with details and explanations that I've referenced many, many times: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/o...-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley.173563/

I have been dosing ME kalk for a few weeks now. Nothing else. As my pH, all, and calcium have been climbing my mag has been dropping.

Another critical thing is we never want to have zero phosphate or zero nitrate in our tanks. Bad things happen such as dinos. You listed your phosphate at zero and said you've greatly reduced feeding. This is not a good place to be.

I'd guess that the brown stuff and the cloudy, white water are two, separate issues. Reef tanks are very complex with many interdepencies. If we overreact to an issue, we can easily cause new issues and not remedy the original issue.

I didn't notice if you said that you started with live rock or dry rock. The brown stuff may be a feature of some live rock and may be harmless, just unusual.

Personally, I'm not in favor of rip cleans. If you can't determine the cause of an issue, what is to stop it from happening again? IMO, repeated rip cleans only prevent a tank from maturing, due to so much disruption of the biodiversity, especially at the microbial-level.

This tank was started last March with new sand and dry rock. I totally believe the cloudiness and brown stuff are separate issues. I can deal with the brown. It's the cloudiness I can't get over.
Corals seem a little upset but still growing. Fish seem mostly unaffected as well. They probably dont like it much, but otherwise no physical issues and are swimming and eating like normal.

I've read a water change wont hurt but the bacteria will only reproduce again and produce the same results eventually. I havent done one in weeks and would have performed at least one during this cloudy time. I have 25g made up and waiting.

There is no doubt the tank has some maturing to do but I should be able to clear the water at least with DE and UV.
Also my skimmer isn't producing much foam anymore where before it was thick and foamy.

Let's say, for kicks and giggles, that it is calcium precipitating, will raising the mag help put it back in solution or will the calcium that's come out of solution have to be removed through water changes?

 

[Uncle99]

I like your number 1. Looks like precipitate in the water, MG is way, way low, you should be the the 1350-1450ppm to halt the Alk and CA from just coming together.
The lowest I’ve ever encountered was 1120ppm, so I’m not sure if that’s just testing error.

 

[Ed olson]

I like your number 1. Looks like precipitate in the water, MG is way, way low, you should be the the 1350-1450ppm to halt the Alk and CA from just coming together.
The lowest I’ve ever encountered was 1120ppm, so I’m not sure if that’s just testing error.

No doubt its low. Using a Salifert kit. I have some RedSea Foundation C. Should I start dosing it while all this is going on? And if I do, will it help clear the water or will I have perform water changes to get rid of the cloudiness.

Also I started with 8tsp/4g of kalk and when my alk reached 10.3 I backed it off to 6tsp/4g.

My calcium has been rising about 20ppm a week since dosing the kalk, but like I said the mag is bottoming out.

 

[schuby]

First thing I would do is stop the Kalk and raise the Mg. It seems you must be dosing a lot of Kalk to keep Alk and Ca up, while the low Mg is bringing Ca down. Do you normally keep your Alk at 9.5 dKh, or has your Alk risen but Ca stayed the same or fallen?