Trace elements

[CoralWealth]

I'm going to be switching my DOSing to use ATI essentials and cutting way back on my AWC. Will be interesting to see the results.

Hey, did you switch to ATI Essentials? If so, what are your thoughts? I am using BRS right now but want to switch to something else

 

[reefwiser]

This may help.
This has been my experience over the past few years.
I ran the full Zeo system for about 2.5 years but the cost was killing me.
Then I change to Fuel & RedSea Colors and ran with than for another year. But thought that they were missing the mark as it was hard to keep the color and growth without starving the SPS.
For the last 10 months I have been using these trace elements and the color and growth is amazing.
http://www.professionalcoralsolutions.com/

Another Professional Coral solutions customer. Great stuff one the best I have ever used. Tony based his trace elements after DSR and that is another great dosing system. I have been experimenting with trace elements for 27 years now and read and try every thing and I am given a lot of stuff to try out. PCS has been something that works very well. I have found that corals do need trace elements and will use them up pretty fast in the water column. Almost as fast as Cal and Alk. I have found that getting the levels in a tank is the magic bullet for my current system. I had struggled with this new tank after moving into a patio home and breaking down my research tanks.( that's 300o gallon Sps tanks for testing) Now I can take a coral and get it back to it's natural colors and health with in a few months. Where before I struggled with AWC and just Cal and alk dosing. I see a marked healthy response to the corals. The future in of the hobby is less water changes and balanced dosing of element's based on testing. All You have to do is read and view GlennF's work and you will see the answers all laid out for you if you have your eye wide open.

 

[BoomCorals]

Hey, did you switch to ATI Essentials? If so, what are your thoughts? I am using BRS right now but want to switch to something else

I switched back to BRS two part. The ATI essentials required way too much to maintain my alk. I burned through the 1000ml $35 pack in a week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Another Professional Coral solutions customer. ......

The future in of the hobby is less water changes and balanced dosing of element's based on testing. All You have to do is read and view GlennF's work and you will see the answers all laid out for you if you have your eye wide open.

I don't necessarily disagree on the testing and dosing, but I'm wondering how it works out with mixed trace elements products as you are using.

If one of the additives contains several trace elements, what if, as is very often the case, you need only a portion of them and the others may be Ok or even elevated?

 

[reefwiser]

Then I adjust the dosing. I am using only 5ml a day. I can not dose a element for a day to get things back in line. Once you have been watch a tank for a year it becomes like playing a piano.
It has opened up a new area of learning for me. One can get a way with some trace element imbalance as the elements don't stay in the water for every long. Glennf's dsr calculator lays it all out there and if one follows and learns it is quite easy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then I adjust the dosing. I am using only 5ml a day. I can not dose a element for a day to get things back in line. Once you have been watch a tank for a year it becomes like playing a piano.
It has opened up a new area of learning for me. One can get a way with some trace element imbalance as the elements don't stay in the water for every long. Glennf's dsr calculator lays it all out there and if one follows and learfluoride,a nd the additive cotnains both, what do you do?ns it is quite easy.

I don't follow.

If you have excess bromide and deficient iodide (extremely common), and are using a product like Red Sea Colors A (iodine, bromine and fluorine), you are left in uncertainty and are unable to focus on what you actually need.

 

[reefwiser]

Randy I am sure you have had great experience in keeping SPS.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy I am sure you have had great experience in keeping SPS.

What? I'm just asking what your strategy is since you said it was based on testing. I didn't say there was anything wrong with whatever you are doing.

 

[Scorpius]

Randy, you're not gonna get a straight answer from him. It's snake oil I'm sure up to a point. He doesn't understand that dosing an all-in-one trace element package will lead to elevated levels of certain elements and low levels of others. I'm sure you're in the camp of if you can't test for it don't dose it.

 

[skiergd011013]

I have a 30 gallon and in tanks this size i think the best way to maintain them is no dosing and weekly water changes. I test nothing but salinity, and do 6 gallons every weekend, which would be over 20% when taking into account water displacement in the tank etc. If you want to increase trace minerals, have you considered trying another salt? Red sea coral pro has pretty high cal, alk, and mag. I dont know how much it matters, but after switching to this salt, i started seeing coralline popping up everywhere after 3 weeks. Never had it before.

 

[CoralWealth]

I switched back to BRS two part. The ATI essentials required way too much to maintain my alk. I burned through the 1000ml $35 pack in a week.

How much BRS 2 part are you dosing a day and how much ATI did you have to dose a day? Right now I only dose 100 ml of BRS a day

 

[BoomCorals]

How much BRS 2 part are you dosing a day and how much ATI did you have to dose a day? Right now I only dose 100 ml of BRS a day

I dose around 175ml per day of BRS 2 part. (175ml of each) For the ATI I was up to almost 1000ml per day.

 

[CoralWealth]

I dose around 175ml per day of BRS 2 part. (175ml of each) For the ATI I was up to almost 1000ml per day.

oh wow, I may not do that then. It wouldnt even last me a month

 

[reefwiser]

Randy, you're not gonna get a straight answer from him. It's snake oil I'm sure up to a point. He doesn't understand that dosing an all-in-one trace element package will lead to elevated levels of certain elements and low levels of others. I'm sure you're in the camp of if you can't test for it don't dose it.

The answres are in the DSR calculator it has been out there for all to find. You can think it is snake oil if you wish it is not. I have spent a ton of my own money testing water over the years. I have a club member that works for our local water company and so I get test's weekly when I am running test on corals. I understand a lot more than most people. Having spent years and years with corals now. Started keeping corals in 1980 and SPS in 1990. I have been keeping tanks since I was ten years old so 54 years now. I believe in doing the work and studying corals .
Many things happen That I am still learning about. I learn from friends around the world and study their work and apply it to what I am interested in. Snake oil if for people who don't do the work. DSR is not snake oil and this type of aquarium keeping is the future of the hobby. If one wants to stay in a rut and not move forward then think it is snake oil. If you want to learn and move forward and quit making the mistakes many in the hobby are doing daily then get into DSR and learn. All trace element dosing comes from a lot of hard work from a lot of hobbyist around the world.

 

[Mattrg02]

Why aren’t these trace elements being added to salt mixes? I’d be surprised if Brightwell missed the chance to beef up their salt.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why aren’t these trace elements being added to salt mixes? I’d be surprised if Brightwell missed the chance to beef up their salt.

They are. In fact, the historical complaint was that there is too much.

The problem is that if salt water has 100 % of your target value, say, zinc or iron, and 50% of the depletes in two weeks, and you do a 20% water change, the values went from 100% to 50% then only back up to 60%. Then next cycle it only goes up to 44%. It is a slowly declining situation.

Obviously, that is a simplification in the extreme, but it shows that "normal" water changes cannot maintain things that deplete rapidly, even if there is plenty in the salt mmix.

 

[Mattrg02]

They are. In fact, the historical complaint was that there is too much.

The problem is that if salt water has 100 % of your target value, say, zinc or iron, and 50% of the depletes in two weeks, and you do a 20% water change, the values went from 100% to 50% then only back up to 60%. Then next cycle it only goes up to 44%. It is a slowly declining situation.

Obviously, that is a simplification in the extreme, but it shows that "normal" water changes cannot maintain things that deplete rapidly, even if there is plenty in the salt mmix.

Ahh, I see. What a headache. So what’s a reefer to do? Room full of test kits?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The answres are in the DSR calculator

And what does the DSR calculator say to do when using mixed additives, as you are now?

Obviously you are making decisions that go beyond the calculator if you use mixed additives that add multiple trace elements at once? Somehow you are deciding what is most important to maintain and what is less important (as in the bromide/iodide example).

Don't just get defensive and blow off the question. You might have a great method, but it is not simply use Glenn's calculator (or any calculator) unless you use different additives for each element of concern (i.e., the full Triton idea of each element separately).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh, I see. What a headache. So what’s a reefer to do? Room full of test kits?

Everything from ignore trace elements entirely, to test each one and dose it individually.

In fact, we don't really know what levels are needed/optimal/insufficient for many trace elements, and even testing does not tell all since, for many elements, the form dictates bioavailability as much as the concentration, and we have little to no data on the forms many trace elements take in reefs.

So it is a lot of trial and error.

My general suggestion for starting down the trace element road, is to experimentally try a mixed additive or set of additives that folks like, or dose a few one or two at a time to see any possible effects.

I personally only dosed iron and silicate, in addition to my 1% daily water changes and foods. But some things tested low and might have benefitted by dosing.

 

[Mattrg02]

Everything from ignore trace elements entirely, to test each one and dose it individually.

In fact, we don't really know what levels are needed/optimal/insufficient for many trace elements, and even testing does not tell all since, for many elements, the form dictates bioavailability as much as the concentration, and we have little to no data on the forms many trace elements take in reefs.

So it is a lot of trial and error.

My general suggestion for starting down the trace element road, is to experimentally try a mixed additive or set of additives that folks like, or dose a few one or two at a time to see any possible effects.

I personally only dosed iron and silicate, in addition to my 1% daily water changes and foods. But some things tested low and might have benefitted by dosing.

Sucks being an engineer. We obsess over details so badly, sometimes.