Triton sump waterfall noise - Workaround, will it work?

[Salahunreal]

Hi
Building the triton sump and after doing quick test, the water flowing from refuge to skimmer section is making some noise due to the waterfall, unless I decrease the return pump speed which is not what triton method recommends. I was thinking to drill a hole in the baffle between the refuge and skimmer and put a bulkhead with gate valve so the water will overflow to the skimmer section via this route.
Sure, I will add some grill or egg crate to reduce chaeto from slipping to the overflow and clog the gate flow
Weir will be on the top of the baffle in case the baffle overflow get clogged and fail to pass water
make quick design as in the pic, would this work or there will be incoming issues?

 

[Besieged]

Hi
Building the triton sump and after doing quick test, the water flowing from refuge to skimmer section is making some noise due to the waterfall, unless I decrease the return pump speed which is not what triton method recommends. I was thinking to drill a hole in the baffle between the refuge and skimmer and put a bulkhead with gate valve so the water will overflow to the skimmer section via this route.
Sure, I will add some grill or egg crate to reduce chaeto from slipping to the overflow and clog the gate flow
Weir will be on the top of the baffle in case the baffle overflow get clogged and fail to pass water
make quick design as in the pic, would this work or there will be incoming issues?

Certainly others with more experience can chime in, but...

Speaking strictly for myself, that'd probably be one of the last things I'd try, mainly because I don't like drilling glass or polycarbonate if I don't have to.

I think the first thing I'd try in your case would be to affix a ~0.5" thick sheet of ~30ppi filter sponge on the 'fuge side, running from the top of the overflow cuts to just below where the waterline will be. This way it would effectively act as a muffler, since the water will then trickle down and through it, rather than splashing.

You really might not even need that much. a 0.5" - 1.0" thick sheet that's just deep enough to cover the cutouts may well be enough. Let's say for sake of numbers that the cutouts themselves are an inch high. If you cut the sponge maybe 2x that high, and then shave a "ramp" that tapers downward toward the bottom into it, so that it angles toward the glass, the water coming in should follow that path and flow down the glass itself, rather than splashing loudly.

Probably other alternatives too, but that's the first (seemingly good) one that comes to mind.

The key thing is you need to slow the water down. One way to do that is via a sort of switch back, or the use of baffles, the way a muffler or a firearm silencer does.

One option (if you're determined to drill) might be to adapt something like the below: it's function is to slow water falling from a significant height, where gravity will cause it to accelerate continuously. By hitting this bend, the water slows down and pressure from water above has to push it up and over the bend. The angles used reduces the pressure created and determines how much is needed to get it "over the hump", and then the water only has just a few feet left to fall and accelerate again before it exits the pipe.


(Photo not mine: taken in Bruges, Belgium)

 

[exnisstech]

Can you just increase the water to level so it doesn't fall as far?

 

[Salahunreal]

Certainly others with more experience can chime in, but...

Speaking strictly for myself, that'd probably be one of the last things I'd try, mainly because I don't like drilling glass or polycarbonate if I don't have to.

I think the first thing I'd try in your case would be to affix a ~0.5" thick sheet of ~30ppi filter sponge on the 'fuge side, running from the top of the overflow cuts to just below where the waterline will be. This way it would effectively act as a muffler, since the water will then trickle down and through it, rather than splashing.

You really might not even need that much. a 0.5" - 1.0" thick sheet that's just deep enough to cover the cutouts may well be enough. Let's say for sake of numbers that the cutouts themselves are an inch high. If you cut the sponge maybe 2x that high, and then shave a "ramp" that tapers downward toward the bottom into it, so that it angles toward the glass, the water coming in should follow that path and flow down the glass itself, rather than splashing loudly.

Probably other alternatives too, but that's the first (seemingly good) one that comes to mind.

The key thing is you need to slow the water down. One way to do that is via a sort of switch back, or the use of baffles, the way a muffler or a firearm silencer does.

One option (if you're determined to drill) might be to adapt something like the below: it's function is to slow water falling from a significant height, where gravity will cause it to accelerate continuously. By hitting this bend, the water slows down and pressure from water above has to push it up and over the bend. The angles used reduces the pressure created and determines how much is needed to get it "over the hump", and then the water only has just a few feet left to fall and accelerate again before it exits the pipe.


(Photo not mine: taken in Bruges, Belgium)

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback.

I was trying to avoid having sponge as it would requires changing, cleaning and so and I think Triton method would prefer that no other filtration rather than skimmer and the refuge itself.

I am not sure either about drilling, but I need to reduce the noise as the tank is near the kid's room and would like to have it quite as much as possible quite
But if I will drill, then the plan that the pipe will be submerged like the pic below so I don't expect it will make any splashing sound or so
It will act like the drain pipe of the overflow section kinda. Failsafe would be the weir over the baffle as it is few cm under the sump heights edge

 

[Salahunreal]

Can you just increase the water to level so it doesn't fall as far?

Yeah that is an option but then I am thinking the 24 liters that will flow back fromt he tank to the sump when return pump off, that return section will not have enough room to hold that water and some will flow back to the skimmer section.

From what I read that Life reef skimmer (which I have) is not sensitive to the changes in the water level so that would be my last resort. I was just looking for some ideas and so

 

[exnisstech]

I wouldn't worry about it filling the skimmer chamber. Best is just shut the skimmer off whenever you are shutting down the return. My sumps fill all chambers up when return is off. The only thing important is the sump not overflowing.

EDIT: I sure wouldn't be drilling my baffles in a nice sump when increasing the water level will correct the problem.

 

[Besieged]

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback.

I was trying to avoid having sponge as it would requires changing, cleaning and so and I think Triton method would prefer that no other filtration rather than skimmer and the refuge itself.

I am not sure either about drilling, but I need to reduce the noise as the tank is near the kid's room and would like to have it quite as much as possible quite
But if I will drill, then the plan that the pipe will be submerged like the pic below so I don't expect it will make any splashing sound or so
It will act like the drain pipe of the overflow section kinda. Failsafe would be the weir over the baffle as it is few cm under the sump heights edge

While it should be much reduced, I'll note might still have some splashing as it runs down the tube. With the valve you've added though, you should be able to tune it to a fair degree at least, but if the pipe isn't large enough it'll overflow at the top anyway.

If you are still hearing the splashing from the pipe, consider putting in some kind of horizontal bend or switchback to give the water a ramp to follow so it doesn't actually have to "fall" straight down where it will splash.

I'll admit I didn't realize you were doing Triton, nor remember that it doesn't run any mechanical filtration. I did choose 30ppi specifically so it wouldn't clog up too fast, but I did so under the assumption some mechanical media would be in front of it. As a result I would hesitate to recommend it because I just don't know enough about Triton to know how having that sponge, kept moist but not submerged, and sucking up detritus, might affect the balance of the system. I wouldn't think it would be too much if at all, but I just don't know and not worth the risk.

As an alternative, make a kind of baffle: have some plexi cut and bent, or something 3d printed, that you can hang over the top, with a lip on the left-side of the divider. Have extend across the top to the right out past the divider for about an inch, before it drops down 90º for another inch or so (or however long the slots are and a little bit more), and then bends in ~45º back towards the divider wall. Have a handful (or even just a pair) of "feet" at the bottom where it contacts the divider wall to set it off from it, and then a, say, 3mm gap or between the end of the "baffle" and the divider. Actually, you may be better off routing/drilling/cutting that 3mm gap more like a set of comb teeth, off-set from the slots in the divider above, and just as numerous, rather than just one (or a few) very long 3mm gaps, this way it should be more effectively forced up against the glass, and to flow down it without splashing.

Something like this: blue is the divider wall, black is the overflow cutout, yellow is the plastic/acrylic/whatever. Aforementioned "teeth" at the bottom not shown.

 

[Salahunreal]

I wouldn't worry about it filling the skimmer chamber. Best is just shut the skimmer off whenever you are shutting down the return. My sumps fill all chambers up when return is off. The only thing important is the sump not overflowing.

EDIT: I sure wouldn't be drilling my baffles in a nice sump when increasing the water level will correct the problem.

Agreed.
I thought this could be my last resort to just let the skimmer section filled up and shut it down if the higher water height unbalances it. My issue is that I sometime overcomplicate stuff and hence this setup have been sitting like 7 years now :D without having water running in. Just filled it once for leak test back then and kept buying stuff and plan and design and so but now my son is pushing me to get it running so now, I said no more complexity but looks like I am doing it again :D

By the way, my sump is just an old JUBEL aquarium I bought 2nd hand and made it as a sump as the original sump with the system I bought was small and not filling the cabinet. So adding/removing baffles shouldn't be an issue

2nd pic is for the current sump

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

 

[exnisstech]

Dang 7 years. That's impressive. I start getting antsy after 7 days if a project I have isn't started :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:
Set up looks nice with a great looking wall behind it.

 

[Salahunreal]

While it should be much reduced, I'll note might still have some splashing as it runs down the tube. With the valve you've added though, you should be able to tune it to a fair degree at least, but if the pipe isn't large enough it'll overflow at the top anyway.

If you are still hearing the splashing from the pipe, consider putting in some kind of horizontal bend or switchback to give the water a ramp to follow so it doesn't actually have to "fall" straight down where it will splash.

I'll admit I didn't realize you were doing Triton, nor remember that it doesn't run any mechanical filtration. I did choose 30ppi specifically so it wouldn't clog up too fast, but I did so under the assumption some mechanical media would be in front of it. As a result I would hesitate to recommend it because I just don't know enough about Triton to know how having that sponge, kept moist but not submerged, and sucking up detritus, might affect the balance of the system. I wouldn't think it would be too much if at all, but I just don't know and not worth the risk.

As an alternative, make a kind of baffle: have some plexi cut and bent, or something 3d printed, that you can hang over the top, with a lip on the left-side of the divider. Have extend across the top to the right out past the divider for about an inch, before it drops down 90º for another inch or so (or however long the slots are and a little bit more), and then bends in ~45º back towards the divider wall. Have a handful (or even just a pair) of "feet" at the bottom where it contacts the divider wall to set it off from it, and then a, say, 3mm gap or between the end of the "baffle" and the divider. Actually, you may be better off routing/drilling/cutting that 3mm gap more like a set of comb teeth, off-set from the slots in the divider above, and just as numerous, rather than just one (or a few) very long 3mm gaps, this way it should be more effectively forced up against the glass, and to flow down it without splashing.

Something like this: blue is the divider wall, black is the overflow cutout, yellow is the plastic/acrylic/whatever. Aforementioned "teeth" at the bottom not shown.

ohh you know what, yesterday I saw a post here in R2R where a guy had Custome sump made and he also wanted to run a triton method, so the company thought already about the high-water level in refuge comparing with skimmer so they added a ramp to the baffle.
Something similar to what you suggested but in different approach.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lets-see-your-triton-specific-sumps.241668/post-2901076
I removed the baffle today and cleaned the sump and I will test tilting the baffle at an angle and run a water test to see if tilting the baffle will reduce the waterfall or not.

I might design that ramp from the post i shared above also and 3d print it. Should not be an issue to do that... I wrote to the guy if this ramp is really working but didn't get an answer yet

I am really thanks for your replies. Much appreciated

 

[Salahunreal]

Dang 7 years. That's impressive. I start getting antsy after 7 days if a project I have isn't started :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:
Set up looks nice with a great looking wall behind it.

ohh yeah the wall, I made it for the aquarium actually, wanted to have a nice wall on the back side of the tank and even did spotlights on the ceiling because of the tank :D
You might understand now when I say that I over complicate stuff.

 

[exnisstech]

Hey if it works for you its better than cutting corners and regretting it later. Sometimes planning is a large part of the fun.
Be sure and update us when you get it running. I'd love to see how you end up stocking it.

 

[Salahunreal]

Hey if it works for you its better than cutting corners and regretting it later. Sometimes planning is a large part of the fun.
Be sure and update us when you get it running. I'd love to see how you end up stocking it.

Will do :)

 

[DanP-SD]

This is more complex than it looks. Depending on flow rate, it could end up being noisier. At its simplest, the flow rate is low and keeps the water level in the left chamber somewhere around or below the middle of the pipe diameter. Then the water can flow smoothly into the lower chamber. It might pull some air — which could add a little noise at low rates (and bubbles) — but shouldn’t be bad.

But if the flow rate is enough to cover the intake end of the pipe, it’ll start a siphon. The siphon will initially be silent but will greatly increase the flow through the pipe, which will likely lower the water level in the left chamber enough to let the pipe suck in air and create a loud flushing noise.

Conceivably, if the flow rate through the sump is very fast, you’ll get a siphon that never sucks air. It’ll be very silent but, for it to stay a full siphon, you need slightly more flow through the sump than the siphon can handle. The remaining flow will go over the weir. In this arrangement it’s kind of like the first two pipes of a bean animal overflow. If you tune it just right, the pipe will be a full siphon and you’ll have just a slight, quiet trickle going over the weir. In the event the pipe gets clogged, you’ll have a major waterfall over the weir so make sure there’s enough room above the weir to handle that.

So, if you’re going to try this and really need silent, I’d put a gate valve on the pipe, make sure the bottom of it terminates just 1/4-1/2” below the water surface of the right chamber (which ensures the pipe can purge air and start a siphon), and originate the pipe low enough in the left chamber to avoid sucking air (a downturned 90 degree elbow on the left end can help with that). Then start with the gate valve wide open and gradually close it until you get a full siphon and a slight trickle of water over the weir.

If you do it please post videos.

Btw I have a pipe like this in my Synergy Reef sump from the crash box to a filter sock but with no valve. It’s loud but in my garage so I don’t need silent.

 

[Salahunreal]

This is more complex than it looks. Depending on flow rate, it could end up being noisier. At its simplest, the flow rate is low and keeps the water level in the left chamber somewhere around or below the middle of the pipe diameter. Then the water can flow smoothly into the lower chamber. It might pull some air — which could add a little noise at low rates (and bubbles) — but shouldn’t be bad.

But if the flow rate is enough to cover the intake end of the pipe, it’ll start a siphon. The siphon will initially be silent but will greatly increase the flow through the pipe, which will likely lower the water level in the left chamber enough to let the pipe suck in air and create a loud flushing noise.

Conceivably, if the flow rate through the sump is very fast, you’ll get a siphon that never sucks air. It’ll be very silent but, for it to stay a full siphon, you need slightly more flow through the sump than the siphon can handle. The remaining flow will go over the weir. In this arrangement it’s kind of like the first two pipes of a bean animal overflow. If you tune it just right, the pipe will be a full siphon and you’ll have just a slight, quiet trickle going over the weir. In the event the pipe gets clogged, you’ll have a major waterfall over the weir so make sure there’s enough room above the weir to handle that.

So, if you’re going to try this and really need silent, I’d put a gate valve on the pipe, make sure the bottom of it terminates just 1/4-1/2” below the water surface of the right chamber (which ensures the pipe can purge air and start a siphon), and originate the pipe low enough in the left chamber to avoid sucking air (a downturned 90 degree elbow on the left end can help with that). Then start with the gate valve wide open and gradually close it until you get a full siphon and a slight trickle of water over the weir.

If you do it please post videos.

Btw I have a pipe like this in my Synergy Reef sump from the crash box to a filter sock but with no valve. It’s loud but in my garage so I don’t need silent.

Yes, that's exactly what the plan is to initiate a siphon, and I already have a gate valve if you see my design to control the flow rate. I have updated the design a bit after some discussion and thoughts.

I drilled the hole today and will start gluing the baffle back in the sump tomorrow hopefully.

 

[DanP-SD]

Is the weir on top of the baffle removable? If so, I think you’ll get a quieter waterfall without it. To keep the siphon full, you’ll need to run the flow rate faster than the siphon can handle with a constant trickle over the baffle. Seems like the weir will make it noisy. If the left chamber is a refugium with livestock you don’t want getting over the wall, the weir might be the lesser of two evils - but the siphon will probably pull more solids through the wall than a slow surface trickle over a weirless baffle would do.