Tropic Marin Carbon dosing - confused

recci

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I have watched the reef dude videos where the different Tropic Marin carbon dosing products are discussed. And I get that there are 4 or 5 different products for different situations but I am still not sure I fully understand what each product will do for me.

I'll start off by describing my tank.

Red Sea reefer 350
Mainly SPS dominated with a few LPS.
8x 54w ATI T5 lights
Alk around aimed to be kept at 8 DKH
Nitrates are above 10 but this is because I started dosing nitrates. If I don't dose it is undetectable on a red sea pro test kit.
Phosphates are around 0.12 to 0.1 but it's hard to tell.
I run a Clarisea SK3000 and a UV sterilizer on this tank and a slightly oversized skimmer.

I used to dose carbocalcium with trace but the consumption of this was over 120ml per day and it was continually going up so I suspected something wasn't right and switched to a calcium reactor. I am still in process of deciding if this was a good or bad decision as I now have low ph issues.

My tank grows a lot of hair algae on the back wall glass because I can't really scrape it off. There is very little coraline growth due to the hair algae. There is not a lot of hair algae growing on my rock work thankfully. The tank was started with mature dead rock and some live rock from another tank and it has been running for a little over a year now.

I suffer from both Cyano and dino's in this tank but neither is out of control. I had a large cyano outbreak 4 months ago that I could not beat so I resorted to chemiclean which obliterated it and I then started dosing the nitrates. The dinos just kinda hang's around but never fully takes over or fully goes away hence the UV steralizer. There are traces of cyano and dinos currently but you have to look hard to see it.

I suspect there is a lack of bio-diversity bacteria-wise in my tank and that is why I am having these issues. I don't want to increase my nutrients more as they are already too high and will just feed the hair algae and every time I try to reduce the nutrients I get cyano and dinos. I find this extremely frustrating. Ideally, I would like my nitrates to be around 1-2ppm and my phosphates around 0.4 to 0.6. I have reduced the dose of nitrates but it's taking a while to come down.

I think one or two of the carbon dosing products could help me with this but I am not sure which ones or how to really apply it to get to and maintain the aforementioned numbers. I have used Red Sea's Nopox in the past and it reduced nitrates to zero virtually overnight but had absolutely no impact whatsoever on phosphate levels.

Is reef Reef Actif aimed at reducing nutrients or is it aimed at feeding coral? What will this product do for me in black and white terms?

The same with Bacto-balance?
 

Lou Ekus

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There are a number of questions you are asking. I will try to answer here as best as I can. We may want to just get on the phone and talk this through, though.

It sounds like you would be best off trying our ELIMI NP first. This should help bring your PO4 down a little. Then, after your PO4 gets down to the 0.07 or 0.08 ppm range, then I would have you switch over to the NP BACTO Balance. That should help you stay in that range, but keep the carbon dosing going.

That algae and cyano part of this is more difficult. I would hope that getting the PO4 to go down a little and more directed to your corals, and the little bit of NO3, would help beat those back a little. But we also might find the opposite to be true. This will be a process like everything else in reefing.

Let me know if you have other questions and how you make out. And if the issues continue, give me a call in the office so we can discuss.

Good luck.
 
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recci

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There are a number of questions you are asking. I will try to answer here as best as I can. We may want to just get on the phone and talk this through, though.

It sounds like you would be best off trying our ELIMI NP first. This should help bring your PO4 down a little. Then, after your PO4 gets down to the 0.07 or 0.08 ppm range, then I would have you switch over to the NP BACTO Balance. That should help you stay in that range, but keep the carbon dosing going.

That algae and cyano part of this is more difficult. I would hope that getting the PO4 to go down a little and more directed to your corals, and the little bit of NO3, would help beat those back a little. But we also might find the opposite to be true. This will be a process like everything else in reefing.

Let me know if you have other questions and how you make out. And if the issues continue, give me a call in the office so we can discuss.

Good luck.

The sounds fair, but would I keep dosing Nitrates while dosing ELIMI NP? My understanding is that carbon dosing only really helps with po4 if it also has plenty of nitrates to use. If I stop the nitrates they will go to undetectable levels.

Also, where does Reef Actif fit into all this. Still not sure what it actually does?
 

Lou Ekus

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The sounds fair, but would I keep dosing Nitrates while dosing ELIMI NP? My understanding is that carbon dosing only really helps with po4 if it also has plenty of nitrates to use. If I stop the nitrates they will go to undetectable levels.

Also, where does Reef Actif fit into all this. Still not sure what it actually does?
Keep doing what you are doing with the NO3. Just also make sure you are monitoring them for changes.

Reef Actif is a very gentle form of carbon dosing, very different from our other carbon dosing products. It can be used, very effectively, in conjunction with any of those other carbon dosing products.
 

Superlightman

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There are a number of questions you are asking. I will try to answer here as best as I can. We may want to just get on the phone and talk this through, though.

It sounds like you would be best off trying our ELIMI NP first. This should help bring your PO4 down a little. Then, after your PO4 gets down to the 0.07 or 0.08 ppm range, then I would have you switch over to the NP BACTO Balance. That should help you stay in that range, but keep the carbon dosing going.

That algae and cyano part of this is more difficult. I would hope that getting the PO4 to go down a little and more directed to your corals, and the little bit of NO3, would help beat those back a little. But we also might find the opposite to be true. This will be a process like everything else in reefing.

Let me know if you have other questions and how you make out. And if the issues continue, give me a call in the office so we can discuss.

Good luck.
Hello Lou ,the bacto balance contains also the element k ,but I'm use already ALL FOR REEF wich has it inside, their is another alternative?
 

Lou Ekus

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Hello Lou ,the bacto balance contains also the element k ,but I'm use already ALL FOR REEF wich has it inside, their is another alternative?
The amount of K+ in the Bacto-Balance is only the amount to support the associated biological activity. No problem to keep using the All-For-Reef with it.
 

Superlightman

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@Lou Ekus it is possible that Elimi NP and the pellets make the Ph drop? Since few days I use it, the PH drop during day time from 8,25 to 8,02 and night time from 7,8 to 7,7 or less. I did not other change and today the PH was raising, when I ad it, the raise stopped. :-/
 

Lou Ekus

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@Lou Ekus it is possible that Elimi NP and the pellets make the Ph drop? Since few days I use it, the PH drop during day time from 8,25 to 8,02 and night time from 7,8 to 7,7 or less. I did not other change and today the PH was raising, when I ad it, the raise stopped. :-/
I suppose it is technically "possible". But I would not expect it to be that dramatic or noticeable. My guess is that there is something else going on.
 

Superlightman

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I suppose it is technically "possible". But I would not expect it to be that dramatic or noticeable. My guess is that there is something else going on.
Like what?What could trigger this? Prior,I used the KZ carbon dosing and I need only few drops and the ph was fine ,to get the same result with the Elim NP I need to go on the max 0,5 that are written on the bottle. Today I did a Test and I went back to the KZ product and the PH went up again :-\
 

Lou Ekus

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Like what?What could trigger this? Prior,I used the KZ carbon dosing and I need only few drops and the ph was fine ,to get the same result with the Elim NP I need to go on the max 0,5 that are written on the bottle. Today I did a Test and I went back to the KZ product and the PH went up again :-\
I don't know exactly what could be doing this. We have not seen that pH change before. I will ask my scientists in the lab if they might have some explanation. If I get anything concrete, I will let you know.
 

CrappyCrab

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@Lou Ekus Hi Lou! I have been dosing elimi np for about a month now. Started with the recommended dosage and have recently maxed out the dosage at 1ml. Running a red sea 250 estimated about 200l in overall water vol. However, I have not seen any reduction in po4.

Fed twice a day, total 1 and a half cube of hikari mysis each time. Now ny po4 levels are at 0.44.

Stocking wise, 4 small to regular sized wrasses and some invertebrates. Lps. Dominated tank.

My tank is running on TM products. AFR, TM Pro reef salt. Alk hovering around 7.2. I'm not certain why I am not able to see any reduction in po4 over the course of 1 month. I have stop feeding my sis and fed a pinch of tdo pallets once daily for the past 3 days
 
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CrappyCrab

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Just to add, prior to TM carbon dosing regime, I have carbon dosed before using AF products. I have steadily maintained the po4 level at about 0.03 for about a year.

I came across rave reviews on TM carbon dosing sys and wanted to give it a try. I'm unsure if I received a bad batch of product. Its mind boggling to see there's no reduction in po4. Don't get me wrong I love TM products and I wish to run my sys entirely on TM products. I even have bacto balance ready once I've reached the desirable po4 level at. 06 to. 01.
 

Lou Ekus

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Just to add, prior to TM carbon dosing regime, I have carbon dosed before using AF products. I have steadily maintained the po4 level at about 0.03 for about a year.

I came across rave reviews on TM carbon dosing sys and wanted to give it a try. I'm unsure if I received a bad batch of product. Its mind boggling to see there's no reduction in po4. Don't get me wrong I love TM products and I wish to run my sys entirely on TM products. I even have bacto balance ready once I've reached the desirable po4 level at. 06 to. 01.
I understand your frustration. We have no batches of any of our carbon dosing products that have shown any issue. It's not impossible, of course, but unlikely under the circumstances at the moment.

That being said, I am forwarding your concerns to our lab in Germany. Hopefully @Hans-Werner Balling will chime in with some additional thoughts. At the moment, I am stumped!
 

Deep

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Just to add, prior to TM carbon dosing regime, I have carbon dosed before using AF products. I have steadily maintained the po4 level at about 0.03 for about a year.

I came across rave reviews on TM carbon dosing sys and wanted to give it a try. I'm unsure if I received a bad batch of product. Its mind boggling to see there's no reduction in po4. Don't get me wrong I love TM products and I wish to run my sys entirely on TM products. I even have bacto balance ready once I've reached the desirable po4 level at. 06 to. 01.
what are your nitrate levels ?
 

CrappyCrab

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Thanks Lou! It'll be great. I started dosing elimi np on 10 May 21 and my po4 levels were at 0.23. Reason being I stopped using gfo for a month before transitioning to TM. However, my nitrates were at 20 ppm previously and right now it's currently hovering around 5ppm. Might be due to the results of dosing elimi np and several water changes.

Neverthess I have not experienced any undesirable algae outbreaks since I've started this tank. Knock on wood! I will need to address the situation before it's getting out of hand. Lol
 

CrappyCrab

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@Deep Before I started with TM dosing my nitrates were at 20 to 30. Didn't want to dose nopox as I was manually dosing my other additives. Found it a chore hence I found TM to be more of a hands off approach after I transition to bacto balance. Currently at 5ppm (tested earlier today)
 

Hans-Werner

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What could trigger this? Prior,I used the KZ carbon dosing and I need only few drops and the ph was fine ,to get the same result with the Elim NP I need to go on the max 0,5 that are written on the bottle. Today I did a Test and I went back to the KZ product and the PH went up again :-\
Almost every organic carbon dosing will produce some CO2. This is unavoidable, otherwise it would be no organic carbon dosing. (Maybe formate is an exception producing only bicarbonate.) Maybe it is possible to compensate for this pH lowering CO2 by adding some alkalinity, please see this thread. But this would increase alkalinity.

The KZ product cannot contain much organic carbon in "only a few drops". This is just not possible. Maybe it has other components, for example precipitating phosphate (i. e. lanthanum). I don't know this product.
So I have to ask which results you mean? To nitrate or to phosphate?

We have chosen an polyol (an alcohol) that seemed to have the smallest negativ effect to microflora and growth of opportunistic (negative) bacteria. This may have a smaller effect to nitrate reduction since thinner biofilms may cause less nitrification. But in general the effect of organic carbon dosing mainly depends on the amount of organic carbon dosed.

Started with the recommended dosage and have recently maxed out the dosage at 1ml. Running a red sea 250 estimated about 200l in overall water vol. However, I have not seen any reduction in po4.
The phosphate is a bit a "complex" nutrient. If you want to increase phosphate concentration with ortho-phosphate you will notice that after starting dosing not much will happen. Phosphate will disappear from the water very fast. This is because phosphate adsorbs to calcareous rocks and calcareous sand.

When starting to remove phosphate, at first this adsorbed phosphate will dissolve and go back into the water, maybe supported by bacterial acitivity increased by any kind of organic carbon dosing.

Different tanks will behave different in this regard, for example sand bed vs. bare bottom, depending from the surface area of calcareous material used.
 

Hans-Werner

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Am I right to say to keep dosing at the max dosage till I can see the drop of phosphate?
Yes, this is the right approach. :)

But please keep in mind that dropping phosphate concentrations may have negative effects to corals, especially if they are not in balance with the nitrate concentration. Just in case ...
 
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