Tropic Marin Part C and Elements

[merfury1989]

Hi,

So if Tropic Marin Part A and Part B are dosed individually, how is the dosing decided for Part C?
For example, If I am doing 30ml of Part A (Calcium) per day, and 50ml (Alkalinity) per day, how much should I be dosing Part C in this case?

Moreover, does Part C increase Magnesium PPM? Or I need to dose Magnesium separately?

Furthermore, how much Elements K and A to add in liquid balling Part A and B?
I got a dosing container where I have added both Part A and B separately, how much of K and A should be added on top of 1,000ml solutions?

 

[MegabiteOG]

Instruction are on the BRS site. BRS Instructions

“Tropic Marin Part C Dosing Amount - You will need to refer to your daily Soda Ash (alkalinity) dosing amount and multiply it by two. That will be your daily dosage for Tropic Marin Part C.

Example: If your tanks daily alkalinity dosage is 21.42mL, then you will need 42.84mL of Tropic Marin Part C Daily.”

 

[merfury1989]

Instruction are on the BRS site. BRS Instructions

“Tropic Marin Part C Dosing Amount - You will need to refer to your daily Soda Ash (alkalinity) dosing amount and multiply it by two. That will be your daily dosage for Tropic Marin Part C.

Example: If your tanks daily alkalinity dosage is 21.42mL, then you will need 42.84mL of Tropic Marin Part C Daily.”

Is the concept same with Tropic Marin part B? Its not just Soda Ash, it is a mixture of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate as well.

There were places where I see people say dose Part C as per the lowest consumption of either Part A or B.
For example: if Part A is 50ml and Part B is 70ml, then dose Part C as 50ml. How true is this?

 

[mcarroll]

Is this the Balling setup where part three is sea salt mix minus the sodium and chloride?

I think in The Reef Aquarium they say that one of the problems with this type of dosing system is that it isn't balanced.

(I gather that's what makes ESV's B-IONIC stand out in comparison – being balanced? @Randy Holmes-Farley)

 

[EnterName]

Is this the Balling setup where part three is sea salt mix minus the sodium and chloride?

I think in The Reef Aquarium they say that one of the problems with this type of dosing system is that it isn't balanced.

(I gather that's what makes ESV's B-IONIC stand out in comparison – being balanced? @Randy Holmes-Farley)

The Balling-System is based on three components:

• A: Calcium Chloride (usually sold as dihydrate)
• B: Sodium carbonate & Sodium bicarbonate
• C: Artificial sea salt without Sodium chloride (NaCl)

The underlying idea is that Calcium chloride will react with Sodium (bi)carbonate to form CaCO3 (providing alkalinity) and NaCl. This NaCl causes an ionic imbalance which component C will restore by providing everything else in sea salt except NaCl.

However, if you need more component A than B, you will add more Cl- ions, if you need more B than A you will add more Na+ ions. In both cases you are causing an ion imbalance which needs to be corrected using water changes so it doesn't get larger over time. This is probably the biggest weakness of this otherwise well working system.

As far as I'm aware it is recommended to match the dosed amount of component C to the amount of A, as stated by BRS, (see last question in "Product Questions)".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If you are using the actual Tropic Main solutions, you dose equal parts of all three.

Part C does not maintain magnesium against consumption. If you need to do that, I recommend RMM rather than measuring magnesium. Just add at a fixed rate using a commercial or DIY magnesium only supplement.

If you have a test kit that you have confidence in, testing and dosing can work.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/just-say-no-to-magnesium-testing-rmm-is-born.1017528/

 

[merfury1989]

In

The Balling-System is based on three components:

• A: Calcium Chloride (usually sold as dihydrate)
• B: Sodium carbonate & Sodium bicarbonate
• C: Artificial sea salt without Sodium chloride (NaCl)

The underlying idea is that Calcium chloride will react with Sodium (bi)carbonate to form CaCO3 (providing alkalinity) and NaCl. This NaCl causes an ionic imbalance which component C will restore by providing everything else in sea salt except NaCl.

However, if you need more component A than B, you will add more Cl- ions, if you need more B than A you will add more Na+ ions. In both cases you are causing an ion imbalance which needs to be corrected using water changes so it doesn't get larger over time. This is probably the biggest weakness of this otherwise well working system.

As far as I'm aware it is recommended to match the dosed amount of component C to the amount of A, as stated by BRS, (see last question in "Product Questions)".

Interesting, what about adding Elements K and A into respective Part A and B, what are the % that needs to be added? Some place I seen 5% and some place up to 10%. So which one?

 

[spsick]

In

Interesting, what about adding Elements K and A into respective Part A and B, what are the % that needs to be added? Some place I seen 5% and some place up to 10%. So which one?

I am adding 80ml respectively into each gallon of part A and B, which comes out to .05% and I have a very large ratio of sps colonies to water volume. So I would recommend less than that much unless you have a similar situation.

 

[UMALUM]

I am adding 80ml respectively into each gallon of part A and B, which comes out to .05% and I have a very large ratio of sps colonies to water volume. So I would recommend less than that much unless you have a similar situation.

If you don't mind sharing, what's your daily alk consumption and have you ran an icp on the 80ml?

 

[EnterName]

In

The Balling-System is based on three components:

• A: Calcium Chloride (usually sold as dihydrate)
• B: Sodium carbonate & Sodium bicarbonate
• C: Artificial sea salt without Sodium chloride (NaCl)

The underlying idea is that Calcium chloride will react with Sodium (bi)carbonate to form CaCO3 (providing alkalinity) and NaCl. This NaCl causes an ionic imbalance which component C will restore by providing everything else in sea salt except NaCl.

However, if you need more component A than B, you will add more Cl- ions, if you need more B than A you will add more Na+ ions. In both cases you are causing an ion imbalance which needs to be corrected using water changes so it doesn't get larger over time. This is probably the biggest weakness of this otherwise well working system.

As far as I'm aware it is recommended to match the dosed amount of component C to the amount of A, as stated by BRS, (see last question in "Product Questions)".

Interesting, what about adding Elements K and A into respective Part A and B, what are the % that needs to be added? Some place I seen 5% and some place up to 10%. So which one?

These trace element mixes aren't really part of the original balling system, even though they are advertised together by now. The unbalanced nature of Balling, and the fact that it won't be able to maintain certain elements makes it a bit "outdated". They probably added Elements K+ and A- to fix this, but I simply don't know for sure. On the product pages you can calculate recommend amounts, which is like 1 - 2mL per 100L (or 0.95 - 1.89mL per 25gal) daily:
https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/k-elements

https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/a-elements
If you don't want to mess with too many solutions, I would just use up what you have and switch to another system. Balling works fine and you can even get away without water changes for quite some time, but dosing 3-5 solutions for a system that can't be used in a balanced way in your tank is a bit much.

 

[spsick]

If you don't mind sharing, what's your daily alk consumption and have you ran an icp on the 80ml?

I did the math a while ago and was like 1.5dkh/day I think.

I run ICP twice a year and numbers come back perfect except strontium which I have to dose 1ppm a month.

 

[UMALUM]

I did the math a while ago and was like 1.5dkh/day I think.

I run ICP twice a year and numbers come back perfect except strontium which I have to dose 1ppm a month.

Ok that makes sense. I was just curious as the brs breakdown was rather vague to say the least. I'm consuming roughly 3.2 dkh a day and 250ml wasn't cutting it so I just went to 300ml.

Does anyone know if there's a breakdown on the potency of the 2 part when mixing in 10 to 12 ounces of trace to each gallon? Or would one just have to test daily again when making an increase?

 

[KStatefan]

The unbalanced nature of Balling,

What is the unbalanced nature of balling?

 

[spsick]

Ok that makes sense. I was just curious as the brs breakdown was rather vague to say the least. I'm consuming roughly 3.2 dkh a day and 250ml wasn't cutting it so I just went to 300ml.

Does anyone know if there's a breakdown on the potency of the 2 part when mixing in 10 to 12 ounces of trace to each gallon? Or would one just have to test daily again when making an increase?

Dang that’s a lot of consumption!

 

[EnterName]

The unbalanced nature of Balling,

What is the unbalanced nature of balling?

If you have a higher demand for alkalinity than for calcium you would need to add more component B than A. This however means you are adding more sodium to the water than chloride (Component A is calcium chloride based and component B is sodium (bi)carbonate based).

Over time this skews the composition of the water towards more sodium and less chloride. To counter this effect you would need to perform water changes.

Some other systems use Calcium formate instead of Calcium chloride. The Calcium formate provides calcium and alkalinity after the formate is oxidized biologically, so you are effectively providing both with a single salt. Additional alkalinity demand can be covered with salts that also keep the ion balance as well as possible.

I should have clearified this beforehand, thanks for pointing out that it wasn't really clear what I was trying to say.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok that makes sense. I was just curious as the brs breakdown was rather vague to say the least. I'm consuming roughly 3.2 dkh a day and 250ml wasn't cutting it so I just went to 300ml.

Does anyone know if there's a breakdown on the potency of the 2 part when mixing in 10 to 12 ounces of trace to each gallon? Or would one just have to test daily again when making an increase?

If you add the same volume to each, everything stays balanced.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If you have a higher demand for alkalinity than for calcium you would need to add more component B than A. This however means you are adding more sodium to the water than chloride (Component A is calcium chloride based and component B is sodium (bi)carbonate based).

Over time this skews the composition of the water towards more sodium and less chloride. To counter this effect you would need to perform water changes.

This is a very chem-nerdy thought but...

I am not sure that last sentence above is always true, or at least its not a complete picture. Especially if one limits the rise in calcium.

The reason being that an imbalance in alk and calcium demand can only arise in special ways that add or remove alk, and those ways may also impact the sodium and chloride balance.

Thought of simplistically, there is always an exact balance of positive and negative charges in water. One cannot just have sodium rise and chloride fall. Something else must be happening that adds positive charges or removes negative charges, and those positive charges might well be sodium, especially if you ensure that it is not calcium, since one is typically not allowing it to rise indefinitely.

 

[EnterName]

If you have a higher demand for alkalinity than for calcium you would need to add more component B than A. This however means you are adding more sodium to the water than chloride (Component A is calcium chloride based and component B is sodium (bi)carbonate based).

Over time this skews the composition of the water towards more sodium and less chloride. To counter this effect you would need to perform water changes.

This is a very chem-nerdy thought but...

I am not sure that last sentence above is always true, or at least its not a complete picture. Especially if one limits the rise in calcium.

The reason being that an imbalance in alk and calcium demand can only arise in special ways that add or remove alk, and those ways may also impact the sodium and chloride balance.

Thought of simplistically, there is always an exact balance of positive and negative charges in water. One cannot just have sodium rise and chloride fall. Something else must be happening that adds positive charges or removes negative charges, and those positive charges might well be sodium, especially if you ensure that it is not calcium, since one is typically not allowing it to rise indefinitely.

Yeah, you are right. The whole thing is a heck of a lot more complex, but that's pretty much what I learned from Hans Werner Balling himself in some talks about the Balling method. I very much believe you, that this doesn't paint the whole picture, but Mr. Balling probably had to "dumb it down" a bit so non-chemists (like myself unfortunately) understand it better.

Do you know what happens exactly? I mean the ions are not just disappearing, so I guess one of the following must be happening?

1. other ions have to fall out of solution in some way.
2. some ions change their oxidation state so the charge balance remains stable.
3. other ions that weren't previously in solution get back into solution to compensate.

 

[UMALUM]

If you add the same volume to each, everything stays balanced.

Ok so I wouldn't have to worry about the concentration of the soda ash or chloride being stronger with the trace replacing 12 ounces of what would usually be traditional rodi?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yeah, you are right. The whole thing is a heck of a lot more complex, but that's pretty much what I learned from Hans Werner Balling himself in some talks about the Balling method. I very much believe you, that this doesn't paint the whole picture, but Mr. Balling probably had to "dumb it down" a bit so non-chemists (like myself unfortunately) understand it better.

Do you know what happens exactly? I mean the ions are not just disappearing, so I guess one of the following must be happening?

1. other ions have to fall out of solution in some way.
2. some ions change their oxidation state so the charge balance remains stable.
3. other ions that weren't previously in solution get back into solution to compensate.

The answer will be different for every way that alk does not match calcium demand. As a general rule, these are minor effects and alk does match calcium demand quite well in most tanks. Folks way exaggerate how often demand does not balance. Most often, it Is either because the demand is very low to begin with (so tiny differences begin to become significant) or there are testing errors.

I discusses all the ordinary ways that alk and calcium demand do not balance in the article linked below. In it I also show the chemical reactions involved and what other ions are added or removed.

The biggest ongoing one (aside from water changes or adding alk or calcium without knowing it) is the use of a sulfur denitrator. It depletes alk and adds sulfate. So that is a true mismatch that raises sulfate (and sodium if you use a sodium salt to maintain alk).

Top off using water with alk in it (or calcium in it) certainly contains other matching counterions that would include sodium.

Water changes with a salt mix that has an alk to calcium ratio different than the tank will have counterions as well, which are mostly sodium and chloride.

Rising nitrate that depletes alk, and lowering nitrate (or dosing nitrate) adds alk. In this case, the alk imbalance is directly impacting H+ or OH-, and depending on if and how you correct these things, you may add sodium or chloride.

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley