Tropic Marin reef actif

The ability of bacterial strains and species to use and produce certain substances is usually described with the species or strain. It is from bacteria in cultivation or from the coding of enzymes in the genome. These capabilities don't differ with surrounding.

If the access of bacteria species/strains to a certain substrate is limited, it remains so, independent from the environment.
And bacteria cultivation (mono culture bioreactor?) is not a reef tank.

Again, patients have died in probiotics studies, because a beneficial effect was assumed that turned out differently. A beneficial effect of a pre or probiotic in a certain environment cannot be directly translated to another environment.

The request is simple: please, show us how Reef Actif influences the biome of reef tanks. A nice cross-over trial design with six separate tanks should suffice.
 
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I have been using Microbe Lift Special Blend for this purpose, and I think it is helpful in displacing cyano.
I’ve seen this brand pop up lately. I think I’ll grab a bottle to add to the mix. No pun intended. I think it’s a good idea to add many different strains to the tank. At least that’s what I’ve heard.

I think that’s why some people report better success with different products. It all depends on what’s happening in each individual’s tank.

Anyways… I certainly appreciate everyone’s feedback. I will report back in a few weeks if the tropic Marin products worked for me. And I will be sure to pick up some of the microbe lift to use down the road.
 
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We do know that increased dissolved organic carbon (DOC, I.e. carbon sources) is strongly associated with coral disease.
Do we know this? I have been carbon dosing a long time and if this is known I’ll be very disappointed
 
I’ve seen this brand pop up lately. I think I’ll grab a bottle to add to the mix. No pun intended. I think it’s a good idea to add many different strains to the tank. At least that’s what I’ve heard.
Be warned! It smells like raw sewage ☠️ It made my whole office stink for a few hours after dosing it 🤣
 
Do we know this? I have been carbon dosing a long time and if this is known I’ll be very disappointed
Only about 20 years of consistent real world data…

There is a lot we don’t know in this hobby. But this happens to have an enormous amount of consistent peer reviewed scientific evidence behind it. So, yes, I think we can say “we know”.

That it is not widely known in the hobby shows the huge disconnect between marine science and the reefing hobby.
Carbon dosing is something the hobby adopted from waste water treatment and commercial fish farming. Which is weird because, with my tank I try to emulate a natural reef, not a sewage treatment plant or a Tilapia farm.

Its summarised here:
https://reefbuilders.com/2024/06/21...hy-reef-tank-heres-a-new-method-to-manage-it/
 
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There is a lot we don’t know in this hobby. But this happens to have an enormous amount of consistent peer reviewed scientific evidence behind it. So, yes, I think we can say “we know”.

That it is not widely known in the hobby shows the huge disconnect between marine science and the reefing hobby.
Carbon dosing is something the hobby adopted from waste water treatment and commercial fish farming. Which is weird because, with my tank I try to emulate a natural reef, not a sewage treatment plant or a Tilapia farm.

Its summarised here:
https://reefbuilders.com/2024/06/21...hy-reef-tank-heres-a-new-method-to-manage-it/

We know? Or we speculate?

I think there is a disconnect, but not the one you suggest.

Perhaps the disconnect is in equating accumulation of natural organics in the ocean and what they do, with very rapidly processed and common organics such as acetate added to a reef tank.

Another disconnect from what reefers actually care about: even if one does see more "pathogenic" bacteria by a dna test of the water, if the corals do not appear to be suffering from a bacterial disease, is there a meaningful take away for real world hobbyists? Folks have been warning about coral disease and organic dosing ever since reefers started dosing organics many years ago. Yes, there are some cases of coral disease that may or may not be related to organic dosing, but such a result is not the norm, even for folks using very high doses.

The simple fact that reef tanks dosing organics such as acetic acid are not dropping like flies from coral disease shows that such a simplistic hypothesis fails the real world reef aquarium test.

It's maybe past time for folks to stop talking about organics and to talk about specific organics and what they may or may not do, and at what levels that happens. The inorganic analogy, which the reefing world has moved past, is to make claims about individual inorganic chemicals rather than classes of them, such as "metals".

Someday, I hope organics are treated with the same discerning eye. Oceamo's organic testing is a step in this direction.
 
We know? Or we speculate?

I think there is a disconnect, but not the one you suggest.

Perhaps the disconnect is in equating accumulation of natural organics in the ocean and what they do, with very rapidly processed and common organics such as acetate added to a reef tank.

Another disconnect from what reefers actually care about: even if one does see more "pathogenic" bacteria by a dna test of the water, if the corals do not appear to be suffering from a bacterial disease, is there a meaningful take away for real world hobbyists? Folks have been warning about coral disease and organic dosing ever since reefers started dosing organics many years ago. Yes, there are some cases of coral disease that may or may not be related to organic dosing, but such a result is not the norm, even for folks using very high doses.

The simple fact that reef tanks dosing organics such as acetic acid are not dropping like flies from coral disease shows that such a simplistic hypothesis fails the real world reef aquarium test.

It's maybe past time for folks to stop talking about organics and to talk about specific organics and what they may or may not do, and at what levels that happens. The inorganic analogy, which the reefing world has moved past, is to make claims about individual inorganic chemicals rather than classes of them, such as "metals".

Someday, I hope organics are treated with the same discerning eye. Oceamo's organic testing is a step in this direction.
Just as assuming that if carbon dosing promotes coral disease reef tanks should be dropping like flies. Is just as much a disconnect.

I have not claimed that tanks should or must be dropping like flies. I do think some maybe many STN/RTN/tissue recession incidences can be caused by excessive organic carbon. Regardless of carbon dosing or a lack of export.

There are many hobbyist that have repeatedly linked carbon dosing to coral
tissue loss.

Carbon dosing (no matter the substance) can not distinguish good from bad bacteria. Impossible. On top of that, many good bacteria in the coral biome can turn bad. As shown by plenty studies.

I’m not saying reef actif or carbon dosing is always bad. I’m saying they can be and universally recommending their use is not a good idea.
 
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The ability of bacterial strains and species to use and produce certain substances is usually described with the species or strain. It is from bacteria in cultivation or from the coding of enzymes in the genome. These capabilities don't differ with surrounding.

If the access of bacteria species/strains to a certain substrate is limited, it remains so, independent from the environment.
Oke, so, lets assume Reef Actif indeed promotes a favourable biome by providing fibre/algae polymers in a reef tank.

Is more fibre always better?
Should every body be dosing Reef Actif?

Are all tanks always lacking fibre?
If not, how do I know that my tank is lacking fibre or not?
Algae eating organisms and algae eating fish that are fed seaweed also add those substances.
Could increasing algae based foods in our fish’ diets provide the same benefits to the tank as Reef Actif and at the same time improve our fish’ their gut health?
 
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Just as the assuming that if carbon dosing promotes coral disease reef tanks should be dropping like flies. Is just as much a disconnect.

I have not claimed that tanks should or must be dropping like flies. I do think some maybe many STN/RTN/tissue recession incidences can be caused by excessive organic carbon. Regardless of carbon dosing or a lack of export.

There are many hobbyist that have repeatedly linked carbon dosing to coral
tissue loss.

Carbon dosing (no matter the substance) can not distinguish good from bad bacteria. Impossible. On top of that, many good bacteria in the coral biome can turn bad. As shown by many studies.

I’m not saying reef actif or carbon dosing is always bad. I’m saying they can be and universally recommending their use is not a good idea.

I do not disagree with most of those statements. But it's clear to me we have a lot to learn about what actually causes coral problems on a chemistry level, as opposed to perhaps being more of a "risk factor". That is true whether we are talking about nitrate, phosphate, iron, alkalinity, various minor and trace elements high or low, and perhaps hundreds of individual organics.

I do disagree with the "all organics are equal" hypothesis that you promote with statements such as:

"Carbon dosing (no matter the substance) can not distinguish good from bad bacteria. Impossible. On top of that, many good bacteria in the coral biome can turn bad. As shown by many studies."

As a literal general statement, it is obviously false. Lots of organics are foods for, or detrimental (even lethal), to different bacterial species differently.

From Salem's article that you posted to support your thoughts :

"It was revealed that the sugars glucose and mannose were the primary carbon sources that led to harmful microbial shifts. Mechanistically, many of the beneficial picoplankton species, such as those in the SAR11 order or potentially important coral symbionts such as Endozoicomonas that live an oligotrophic lifestyle likely “have a smaller number of broad-specificity and sufficiently high-affinity transporters” while potential pathogens that lead a copiotrophic lifestyle “possess a wide array of low-affinity and highly specific transporters”[4]"

That paragraph says something quite different from your claim of complete generality..
 
Additionally, people have been killed in clinical pre/probiotics studies.
People with impaired immune systems may be killed by almost every kind of microoganism, even by almost ubiquitous molds and other fungi.

Please show me a proof that people have been killed by prebiotics. This is completely new to me, and we are discussing only prebiotics here, no addition of living bacteria. To my knowledge, the positive effect of fibre and prebiotics on intestinal health and general health is not doubted, in contrast to probiotics.

Please remember, you blamed me for obvious assumptions! What are you doing?

And bacteria cultivation (mono culture bioreactor?) is not a reef tank.
I don't understand this question, and translation by translator doesn't make it more understandable to me. What do you mean? Reef tanks are no mono culture, and also slow growing bacteria and other microorganisms have their chance in a reef tank, in contrast to bacteria cultures for economic profits.

Again, patients have died in probiotics studies, because a beneficial effect was assumed that turned out differently. A beneficial effect of a pre or probiotic in a certain environment cannot be directly translated to another environment.
See above.

There is a lot we don’t know in this hobby. But this happens to have an enormous amount of consistent peer reviewed scientific evidence behind it. So, yes, I think we can say “we know”.
No, you haven't read this peer reviewed scientific literature thoroughly, possibly you only know it from hearsay. Otherwise you should have noticed that scientific investigations in the effects of DOC are nearly always done with glucose and sometimes in ridiculously high doses that are suitable to consume most of the oxygen in the water, which alone can cause coral bleaching. You should also read and think about the "material and methods" chapter.

Like Randy and me have already statet, there are big differences between different organics for organic carbon dosing. I have run trials for many months. But we are not discussing DOC here.

Is more fibre always better?
Of couse not, but Reef Actif comes with an instruction.

Are all tanks always lacking fibre?
If not, how do I know that my tank is lacking fibre or not?
Likely not all tanks are lacking fibre but many tanks may.

If the tank is possibly not lacking fibre, adding a little bit more will not do any harm, only the benefit may be reduced or lacking. There are also different fibres which have different effects. We use a mix.

Algae eating organisms and algae eating fish that are fed seaweed also add those substances.
Could increasing algae based foods in our fish’ diets provide the same benefits to the tank as Reef Actif and at the same time improve our fish’ their gut health?
Feeding seaweed may have the benefits you describe, especially the health effect to algivorous and detrivorous fish, if feeding the right kinds of algae. The fish intestine of these fish is working as a fermenter producing short chain fatty acids which have health benefits for fish also.

I have no direct comparison if both, feeding seaweed and dosing Reef Actif have exactly the same effect, but yes, maybe both are alternative ways. I never have excluded this. By the way: I also have thought about the beneficial effects of Reef Actif described by fish enthusiast with reef tanks. Yes, maybe both methods are interchangeable.
 
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I just wanted to add why I am quite sure that Reef Actif supports a "positive" microbiome or that it has an effect to the microbiome at all.

I am also very interested in algae and all kinds of organisms found in the oceans and in reef aquaria.

When you insert fresh live rock "out of the box" most likely some very nice little algae may grow like the small club-shaped calcifying Neomeris or the umbrella-shaped Acetabularia. Usually these kinds of algae disappear in the first half year while circulating the tank. After I started dosing Reef Actif in 2006 these Neomeris and Acetabularia algae grew again from old live rock at least 2 years old. However, after a while they dissappeared again.

Also several macroalgae completed their life cycles in our tanks with gametophyte and sporophyte which is not frequently reported, not even in scientific literature.

From the red "hair algae" of the Falkenbergia phase (tetrasporophyte) of Asparagopsis the quite spectacular gametophyte grew, with ca. 1 foot long finely branched "leaves".

Also Halimeda and Caulerpa sertularioides completed their life cycles which was also documented and published in the German "Koralle" magazine. Macroalgae usually can only complete their life cycles when certain microorganisms producing certain B vitamins are present.
 
I just wanted to add why I am quite sure that Reef Actif supports a "positive" microbiome or that it has an effect to the microbiome at all.

I am also very interested in algae and all kinds of organisms found in the oceans and in reef aquaria.

When you insert fresh live rock "out of the box" most likely some very nice little algae may grow like the small club-shaped calcifying Neomeris or the umbrella-shaped Acetabularia. Usually these kinds of algae disappear in the first half year while circulating the tank. After I started dosing Reef Actif in 2006 these Neomeris and Acetabularia algae grew again from old live rock at least 2 years old. However, after a while they dissappeared again.

Also several macroalgae completed their life cycles in our tanks with gametophyte and sporophyte which is not frequently reported, not even in scientific literature.

From the red "hair algae" of the Falkenbergia phase (tetrasporophyte) of Asparagopsis the quite spectacular gametophyte grew, with ca. 1 foot long finely branched "leaves".

Also Halimeda and Caulerpa sertularioides completed their life cycles which was also documented and published in the German "Koralle" magazine. Macroalgae usually can only complete their life cycles when certain microorganisms producing certain B vitamins are present.

Interesting observation. Any mechanistic idea why the algae difference?
 
Interesting observation. Any mechanistic idea why the algae difference?
Many algae live in symbiosis with biofilms that supply B vitamins and other growth promoters these algae need (auxotrophy for these vitamins and organic substances). Especially certain stages like the tiny sporophytes of Caulerpa and Halimeda need these biofilms to complete their life cycles.

The macroalgae we know are the gametophytes that sometimes release gametes, bleaching the algae and clouding the water. After fusion of male and female gametes and forming a zygote this grows into the sporophyte. The sporophyte releases spores from which new gametophytes grow.

Reef Actif obviously provided the right kind of substrate to grow or help grow the right biofilms for the sporophyte growth.

Also coral planula larvae actively search for certain kinds of biofilms before they settle and develop to a primary polyp.

I had formulated the "positive microbiology" (prebiotic) hypothesis before these observations with macroalgae, based on own and user's observations on corals and fish. The new developments of macroalgae confirmed this.

The microbiomes of reef tanks are much, much more than nitrification.
 
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