Trouble with SPS : What is considered Stable Parameters?

JCas06

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Looking for some help and opinions on the stability of my water parameters and if that might be the cause of some of my issues with SPS burnt tips and bleaching bases. I last posted in October 2020 about my low kessil ap700 par numbers and low nutrients. I was consistently reading zero’s for nitrate and phosphate, didn’t really have a lot of fish, and didn’t feed as often as I should have. I had some hair algae and my rocks were covered in a clear short fuzz is the best way I can explain it. Coral growth was slow or non existent, LPS like my torch didn’t extend much, my zoas didn’t spread at all, my branching hydrophona slowly died. Overall pale colors and poor health. I was running GFO and skimmer 24/7, carbon, vacuuming my sand bed every water change. After getting some help here I realized I was starving the corals.

I ditched the GFO, purchased more fish, stopped vacuuming my sand bed as often, unplugged the skimmer, and purchased a 4 bulb t5 hybrid light fixture to go with my two kessil ap700’s. I did these changes throughout the month of November. I still had issues getting my nutrients up so I started dosing phosphate and nitrate made by FishOfHex. It seemed like for a few weeks my rocks were sucking it up and then one day I saw my nitrate was around 10-20 if my memory is correct and phos as high as 39 ppb and so I backed off the dosing some and they quickly went down. Since the new year I’ve been bouncing around between zero or very little phos and nitrate to a max of 24 ppb but typically in the single digits or teens. Nitrate has bounced around from 0 to 5 mostly.

I have also been struggling to get my alkalinity very consistent partly due to changing my mind about what number I wanted to target and partly because I’ve just had trouble getting the bubble magus doser dialed in. Back in October, November, December I wanted to stay around 9 dkh to get some growth. I would bounce around from 8.2 to 9.4 in a span of a week I see in November then stayed around 9.5 beginning of December and back down as low as 8.8/9.0 2 weeks into the month. By December 23 I was down to 8.3 and finished December around there. I started the new year around 9 and a week later was back down to 8.5 which I decided might be a better goal number. I stayed up and down the 8’s for the rest of the month. February started out at 7.7 and stayed around the low to mid 8’s through March 6th. After renting a park meter again and finding my par numbers throughout the entire tank top to bottom were high (upper 400’s and one 500 measurement for my highest corals, to 300+ on the sand bed) I read an article about high par, higher alk, and low nutrients and how it can be an issue for coral with tip burn which I started to see. That combined with the fact I use south Florida natural sea water for water changes and I didn’t like adding a lot of alk to each 5 gallon bucket Of NSW before water changes to get it to match my numbers I though it would be better to target 8 dkh from March onward. Since March I’ve ranged from say 8.3 to 7.7 and I’m working on really getting that range tighter and tighter. I also lowered my kessil ap700’s from 75% along with the 4 ATI bulbs to 50% intensity with full t5 intensity I don’t have a t5 dimmer. My par in the tank now is a max of 400 with most upper level corals in mid to lower 300’s, and on the sand I’m seeing mid to upper 200’s.

My frags of sps that I purchased in December were doing ok up until early February. Then I noticed tip burn and some base bleaching. Algae grew on these new exposed areas. Since adding the frags I’ve rarely seen polyp extension except for sometimes in the middle of the night. I also lost a Hollywood stunner chalice in February that would lose tissue slowly each day even though the remaining tissue looked good and would put out feeding tentacles. I attribute this and some heads of candy cane burning from the addition of the t5’s perhaps?

I firmly believe dosing nutrients helped my tank I can see the results easily in my zoas, torch, blasto, and acans. I’ve noticed the clear fuzz that covered my rock work is gone, could be due to adding nutrients and/or my tang and coral beauty. I do still battle hair algae growing in clumps out of rock crevices and I try to manually remove the best I can. I do have what looks like a maroon carpet algae splotched over my rock work and back overflow box that I think came on a snail shell. It stayed pretty mowed down though.

I dose about 30ml of bulk reef supply calcium and alk a day and it seems I always have to tweak it depending if my corals are happy or upset and dying. Mag I dose manually very rarely. I also used to dose Red Sea AB coral aminos but stopped in February after seeing the tip burn. I feed pellets and sea weed soaked in selcon in the morning and a cube of PE mysis at night. My fish are all fat I can’t really feed more.

My stock list:

Kole Tang
Coral Beauty
Clownfish
Royal Gramma
Melanarus Wrasse
Timor Wrasse
Midas Blenny
Dispar Anthia
Talbots Damsel (2)
Blood red fire shrimp
Skunk cleaner shrimp

100 gallon tank (3 years old with dry rock and some rock 8 years old i had from my previous tank
30 gallon sump
Carbon reactor running
Filter socks
ATO
2 gyre pumps
2 kessil ap700
4 bulb t5 hybrid with 3 blue plus and 1 coral plus
RODI upgraded from 4 state to 7 stage in February when I learned city uses chlorimines

I dose FishOfHex nitrate about 10 ml a day and maybe 1 ml phosphate a day
Reef chili/ reef roids 50/50 mix couple times a week
Used to dose Red Sea AB reef energy couple times a week but stopped

Parameters:

Salinity: 35 refractometer calibrated with nsw as I found the solutions you purchase to be off.
Calcium: 420 Red Sea
Alkalinity: around 8 dkh Hannah
Phosphate: 3 ppb to 20 ppb Hannah
Nitrate: 5 Red Sea
Nitrite: 0 Red Sea
Mag: 1360
Ammonia: Can’t read the Salifert for the life of me
Temperature: 79 to 80.5/81 daily

Water changes I get 30 gallons ocean water at the last of the incoming tide from the inlet and change 15 gallons one day and 15 more the next day about every two weeks. I have to clean my glass 2x a week.

I have lots of yellow pineapple sponges, I have blue tunicates I think they are called, I have white sponges in the sump, spiroid worms everywhere, medium coraline growth since t5’s where there was little beforehand.

Since addition of t5’s and nutrients my purple stylo has grown rapidly after doing nothing. Green stylo growing well. The freak anacropora growing well. Mandarin fireworks clove polyps doing well. Torch doing well, acans, Duncan’s, blasto, Goni, meteor shower cyphastrea, all doing well.

Corals not doing well:
Two different rainbow monti frags (think I fried them)
War coral (think I fried it)
Hollywood Stunner (fried it?)
Pink birds nest, bubblegum digi, tubs stellata all burnt tissue covered in algae
SPS frags of princess peach, Oregon tort, rr pink Cadillac, rr the vinh, tsa fruity pebbles all burnt tips and some burnt bases. Algae growing on them.

Diagnose my problems please. How bad are my fluctuating parameters especially alk and nutrients? My new goal is 8 dkh and a range no lower than 7.8 or higher than 8.2. Phosphate goal is never lower than 7 ppb (.021 ppm) and not higher than 19 PLB (.05 ppm). Nitrate goal between 5-10. I am happy with my par numbers now I am still too high on the sand but it is what it is.
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vetteguy53081

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Im seeing cyano which suggests your nitrate and/or Phosphate may be elevated. Adding chemipure elite will keep this in check

Temp 77-79
ph 8.1-8.3
salinity 1.025
nitrate < .4
phos < .04
Ammonia < .03
mG 1300
Alk 8-9
CA 440
 

Jekyl

GSP is the devil and clowns are bad pets
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Do you still have your skimmer turned off? Run it either way even if it drains back to the sump
 
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JCas06

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Do you still have your skimmer turned off? Run it either way even if it drains back to the sump
Yes I still have it off. What would be the reason to run it and let it drain back into the tank?
 
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JCas06

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Im seeing cyano which suggests your nitrate and/or Phosphate may be elevated. Adding chemipure elite will keep this in check

Temp 77-79
ph 8.1-8.3
salinity 1.025
nitrate < .4
phos < .04
Ammonia < .03
mG 1300
Alk 8-9
CA 440
I am not an expert by any means, but my impression was cyano was slimy and could be blown off rock and sand. I get no growth in my sand bed, it’s only on my rockwork and overflow and gyres. It seems to especially like to grow on top of coraline algae too. I can rub it hard with my finger and it does not come off or feel slimy. Best way to describe it is a short fuzzy velvet?? From my research I came to the conclusion it was red turf algae.
 

Jekyl

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Yes I still have it off. What would be the reason to run it and let it drain back into the tank?
For gas exchange at least
 

Hermie

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seems like too high of lighting for too low of nutrients but it also seems you diagnosed that yourself in the original post; have you noticed negative effects from nitrate and phosphate levels higher than what you are currently aiming for?
 

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I see that you mention 2 gyre pumps but not how much flow you are getting out of them. As a general rule, sps corals require greater flow than LPS etc. Also agree with turning skimmer on.
 

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When “stability” is used .
I think when it comes to alk
Anything more than 0.5 dkh in a 24 hour period is too much of a swing .
1dkh in 24hrs is a huge swing for less sensitive corals .

lighting ...
for the low nutrients I can seethe theory but I’m not a believer it’s too much light .
I swear by t5’s
I have 8 bulbs over 5” above the water and nutrients have fluctuates from extremely low to elevated .

I have been thinking of raising my alk above 8dkh but for now as long as it’s stable , I’ll leave it hovering around 7.5

7.3-7.6
 
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JCas06

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seems like too high of lighting for too low of nutrients but it also seems you diagnosed that yourself in the original post; have you noticed negative effects from nitrate and phosphate levels higher than what you are currently aiming for?
I battle to get my levels up to the low levels they currently are by dosing nitrate and phosphate. Lately it seems I have to stay on top of dosing nitrate more so than phosphate but they both can drop to zero if I don’t pay close attention. So no I haven’t noticed any negative effects from higher levels but I don’t know that I’ve ever been there yet. I am slowly trying to dose more and build nutrients up higher though.
 
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JCas06

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I see that you mention 2 gyre pumps but not how much flow you are getting out of them. As a general rule, sps corals require greater flow than LPS etc. Also agree with turning skimmer on.
Not really sure how to put a number on how much flow I’m getting out of them. They are both icecap gyre 4K models set to run opposite numbers from each other ranging from 25% to 50%. I think I set it there as that was the max not to blow my sand around too much. Of course with gyres they pump way better after a cleaning.
 
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JCas06

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When “stability” is used .
I think when it comes to alk
Anything more than 0.5 dkh in a 24 hour period is too much of a swing .
1dkh in 24hrs is a huge swing for less sensitive corals .

lighting ...
for the low nutrients I can seethe theory but I’m not a believer it’s too much light .
I swear by t5’s
I have 8 bulbs over 5” above the water and nutrients have fluctuates from extremely low to elevated .

I have been thinking of raising my alk above 8dkh but for now as long as it’s stable , I’ll leave it hovering around 7.5

7.3-7.6
Looking at my test numbers for Alk I really don’t see swings of .5 or 1 dkh in one or two days even. Seems like more of a gradual wave pattern where my corals have to endure ramping up and down and up and down mostly in the 8’s with the rare venture into the upper 7’s or low 9’s. Looking at my log book changes of .2 in a 24 hour period are pretty common. But like I said I’m really trying to hone in on keeping a tight range around 8.0 now. Hopefully this improves growth and health.
 

homer1475

Figuring out the hobby one coral at a time.
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Get some more fish. Plain and simple. Your corals prefer ammonia over excess nutrients found in the water(no3, Po4), fish excrete ammonia 24/7.

I'm a firm believer in heavy in, heavy out.
 

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Hey there

So its been mentioned above, but I see two things.

1. Your SPS are damaged, and need some time to recover. You should stop chasing your desired Alk # and just keep it stable and within .2.-.3 for at least a few weeks so that your SPS can start to recover and grow back over the exposed skeleton.

2. Nutrients where too low, get more fish or just feed even more. Since your LPS are doing better your probably on the right track just need to keep it up.

Once a coral is damaged it takes much longer to recover and start growing. Swinging parameters are only going to make things worse.

I didnt see if you mentioned it or not, but did you light acclimate the corals? Could have burnt them when you started if they came from a system with lower light.
 
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JCas06

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Hey there

So its been mentioned above, but I see two things.

1. Your SPS are damaged, and need some time to recover. You should stop chasing your desired Alk # and just keep it stable and within .2.-.3 for at least a few weeks so that your SPS can start to recover and grow back over the exposed skeleton.

2. Nutrients where too low, get more fish or just feed even more. Since your LPS are doing better your probably on the right track just need to keep it up.

Once a coral is damaged it takes much longer to recover and start growing. Swinging parameters are only going to make things worse.

I didnt see if you mentioned it or not, but did you light acclimate the corals? Could have burnt them when you started if they came from a system with lower light.

I did not acclimate the frags because I purchased them right after I added the t5 hybrid fixture and the local coral farm where I purchased said they like a lot of light. Started to see polyp extension on my frag of TSA Fruity Pebbles the last few days and then last night I see it rtn before my very eyes. I see both my oregon tort frags also got a big white blotch on them last night as well. Dont have much hope for them. ICP tests came back and to my untrained eye I do not see anything much wrong but I am going to post results for interpretation in a new thread.
 

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