Uh oh... ich outbreak D:

[|Tom the Bomb|]

So yesterday I noticed some very tiny white spots (very few) too on my blue-throat trigger, today it has gotten more visible so I'm getting worried

This is my first time dealing with marine ich, I have dealt with FW ich before, just through some meds in lol, but can't do that with sw.
yes, it is a reef tank, there aren't a lot of corals though.

I have a purple tang, a blue-eye tang, foxface Lo and a volitans lionfish along with the trigger and a couple of cerith and trochus snails.
None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich.

The trigger is pretty new, (added just on sunday.) and has been very timid, all the other fish outcompete it for food, although it is eating some.
Purple tang also doesn't like it very much although the bullying isn't much so I wasn't worried.

All my other fish Ive had for 1-2+ months respectively already.

No I dont QT although I should.

I really don't feel like doing a 72 day fallow period, is it really necessary?

I have looked into PolypLab's medic and there are so many mixed reviews on it I don't know if its worth it or not.

The tank is a 220gallon(ish) tank, a pretty new one too.

So what should I do? I love my fish very much and would hate to lose them
Would a UV sterilizer worth it? I'm willing to spend the money if it'll work.

If so how should I plumb it?

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[TxReefer21]

So yesterday I noticed some very tiny white spots (very few) too on my blue-throat trigger, today it has gotten more visible so I'm getting worried

This is my first time dealing with marine ich, I have dealt with FW ich before, just through some meds in lol, but can't do that with sw.
yes, it is a reef tank, there aren't a lot of corals though.

I have a purple tang, a blue-eye tang, foxface Lo and a volitans lionfish along with the trigger and a couple of cerith and trochus snails.
None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich.

The trigger is pretty new, (added just on sunday.) and has been very timid, all the other fish outcompete it for food, although it is eating some.
Purple tang also doesn't like it very much although the bullying isn't much so I wasn't worried.

All my other fish Ive had for 1-2+ months respectively already.

No I dont QT although I should.

I really don't feel like doing a 72 day fallow period, is it really necessary?

I have looked into PolypLab's medic and there are so many mixed reviews on it I don't know if its worth it or not.

The tank is a 220gallon(ish) tank, a pretty new one too.

So what should I do? I love my fish very much and would hate to lose them
Would a UV sterilizer worth it? I'm willing to spend the money if it'll work.

If so how should I plumb it?

Any advice would be appreciated

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Wyvern]

If it's JUST ich and NOT velvet you can manage it with UV, food grade Hydrogen Peroxide, great water quality and good food soaked in Selcon.


If the other two are fine, and stay fine, chances are it has been in the system, but they just shake it off with good immunity and low stress.

If you don't want to deal with this, then QT and follow is advisable.

Bullying will cause stress and cause an outbreak in a "managed" system, if the agressor doesn't stop after a week or two, you may need to rearrange rocks, do time-outs ect. It may or may not stop harassing so you may need to remove one or the other.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

Here are some pics if needed, theyre not the best sorry he moves too much

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

If it's JUST ich and NOT velvet you can manage it with UV, food grade Hydrogen Peroxide, great water quality and good food soaked in Selcon.


If the other two are fine, and stay fine, chances are it has been in the system, but they just shake it off with good immunity and low stress.

If you don't want to deal with this, then QT and follow is advisable.

Bullying will cause stress and cause an outbreak in a "managed" system, if the agressor doesn't stop after a week or two, you may need to rearrange rocks, do time-outs ect. It may or may not stop harassing so you may need to remove one or the other.

I have read about the hydrogen peroxide method but it seems a bit hard to do properly and whatnot

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

If it's JUST ich and NOT velvet you can manage it with UV, food grade Hydrogen Peroxide, great water quality and good food soaked in Selcon.


If the other two are fine, and stay fine, chances are it has been in the system, but they just shake it off with good immunity and low stress.

If you don't want to deal with this, then QT and follow is advisable.

Bullying will cause stress and cause an outbreak in a "managed" system, if the agressor doesn't stop after a week or two, you may need to rearrange rocks, do time-outs ect. It may or may not stop harassing so you may need to remove one or the other.

yea thats what other people have told me too, little stress and good food. I have some vitachem would that work instead of selcon, I typically feed nori 1-2 times a day, 1 cube of mysis, 1 cube of spirulina brine, some lrs in the evening ocassionally

 

[Wyvern]

I have read about the hydrogen peroxide method but it seems a bit hard to do properly and whatnot

There is a therapeutic dose and a maintenance dose.

Right now I treat 1ml to every 6 gallons with 120gallons system volume. I dose half in morning and half at night.

The therapeutic dose is a bit different, so you would have to read ask about that.

I cant tell exactly what it is the fish has, but watch for fast resperation.
Also those torn fins may be a problem for infection.

You should also post your water quality especially since it's a new tank.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

Ive also been dealing with Low nutrient issues cus my caulerpa has been sucking that up, but rn its balanced at 20ppm NO3 and 0.05 PO4, ammonia and nitrites are 0, alk 9, ca, 490, mag 1320, ph 7.8 (yes its low), I dont have my skimmer on cus theres so little organics for it, plus the filter roller is catching all the gunk

 

[Wyvern]

Try to get some white light photos.

Someone more knowledgeable than me will help you further, I know FW better than salt, I just read months worth of material before setting up my first reef.

 

[threebuoys]

If its crypto (saltwater Ich), to eradicate from you display tank you only have two choices, fallow without any fish in it, or copper without any invertebrates/corals in it.

If you put the fish in QT to go fallow in the display tank, copper is the best choice.

I suggest you read the stickies at the top of this forum about fallow and quarantine protocols.

Some try the TTM method over copper, but that still requires the display tank to be fallow for 7 to 10 weeks to eradicate the crypto there, depending on you you believe.

I personally prefer the copper protocol.

I use UV but based on how the crypto life cycle works, it alone will not be able to eradicate crypto.

 

[ScottB]

So yesterday I noticed some very tiny white spots (very few) too on my blue-throat trigger, today it has gotten more visible so I'm getting worried

This is my first time dealing with marine ich, I have dealt with FW ich before, just through some meds in lol, but can't do that with sw.
yes, it is a reef tank, there aren't a lot of corals though.

I have a purple tang, a blue-eye tang, foxface Lo and a volitans lionfish along with the trigger and a couple of cerith and trochus snails.
None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich.

The trigger is pretty new, (added just on sunday.) and has been very timid, all the other fish outcompete it for food, although it is eating some.
Purple tang also doesn't like it very much although the bullying isn't much so I wasn't worried.

All my other fish Ive had for 1-2+ months respectively already.

No I dont QT although I should.

I really don't feel like doing a 72 day fallow period, is it really necessary?

I have looked into PolypLab's medic and there are so many mixed reviews on it I don't know if its worth it or not.

The tank is a 220gallon(ish) tank, a pretty new one too.

So what should I do? I love my fish very much and would hate to lose them
Would a UV sterilizer worth it? I'm willing to spend the money if it'll work.

If so how should I plumb it?

Any advice would be appreciated

Real QT is a lot of work. In its purest form every single wet living thing must pass through the protocol. It was too much for me. My 120 display has had ich pretty much since inception 8 years ago because I never chose to go fallow.

There is a health cost you will likely face from time to time. Every couple of years I will get an outbreak caused by something like:
a) a temperature event when the A/C quit in Summer
b) the addition of a fish or two that upset the balance of power
c) a toxic spike when removing chrysophytes

My outbreaks tend to go like this:
One in four or one in five fish will show ich -- which always include the PBT and most tangs. & the angel.
Of those four or five fish, 2 to three may pass away.
Within a few weeks, the rest recover.

 

[Wyvern]

Real QT is a lot of work. In its purest form every single wet living thing must pass through the protocol. It was too much for me. My 120 display has had ich pretty much since inception 8 years ago because I never chose to go fallow.

There is a health cost you will likely face from time to time. Every couple of years I will get an outbreak caused by something like:
a) a temperature event when the A/C quit in Summer
b) the addition of a fish or two that upset the balance of power
c) a toxic spike when removing chrysophytes

My outbreaks tend to go like this:
One in four or one in five fish will show ich -- which always include the PBT and most tangs. & the angel.
Of those four or five fish, 2 to three may pass away.
Within a few weeks, the rest recover.

I have a fw tetra tank, bad ich outbreak, killed 2/7 fish, went away, came back, went away and now never seen it again in 3 years.

Waiting for those stupid things to die of old age now...

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

If its crypto (saltwater Ich), to eradicate from you display tank you only have two choices, fallow without any fish in it, or copper without any invertebrates/corals in it.

If you put the fish in QT to go fallow in the display tank, copper is the best choice.

I suggest you read the stickies at the top of this forum about fallow and quarantine protocols.

Some try the TTM method over copper, but that still requires the display tank to be fallow for 7 to 10 weeks to eradicate the crypto there, depending on you you believe.

I personally prefer the copper protocol.

I use UV but based on how the crypto life cycle works, it alone will not be able to eradicate crypto.

well at this point Im not doing eradication, also wouldnt the rock also absoorb the copper, so treating dt would mean no inverts forever...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So yesterday I noticed some very tiny white spots (very few) too on my blue-throat trigger, today it has gotten more visible so I'm getting worried

This is my first time dealing with marine ich, I have dealt with FW ich before, just through some meds in lol, but can't do that with sw.
yes, it is a reef tank, there aren't a lot of corals though.

I have a purple tang, a blue-eye tang, foxface Lo and a volitans lionfish along with the trigger and a couple of cerith and trochus snails.
None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich.

The trigger is pretty new, (added just on sunday.) and has been very timid, all the other fish outcompete it for food, although it is eating some.
Purple tang also doesn't like it very much although the bullying isn't much so I wasn't worried.

All my other fish Ive had for 1-2+ months respectively already.

No I dont QT although I should.

I really don't feel like doing a 72 day fallow period, is it really necessary?

I have looked into PolypLab's medic and there are so many mixed reviews on it I don't know if its worth it or not.

The tank is a 220gallon(ish) tank, a pretty new one too.

So what should I do? I love my fish very much and would hate to lose them
Would a UV sterilizer worth it? I'm willing to spend the money if it'll work.

If so how should I plumb it?

Any advice would be appreciated

So - here is the issue: Cryptocaryon, saltwater ich multiplies geometrically. When the trophonts (the white spots you see) reach a certain number, nothing but a full copper treatment is going to stop them, it is called "propagule pressure" where the attacking ich parasites themselves cause the fish enough stress that no amount of "good food and pristine water" will cure them...you will lose very single fish. If the ich infection remains under that number, you can sometimes manage ich with UV sterilizers, good water conditions, and good food. Trouble is - nobody knows what that number is, or if it is the same number for every fish! Generally, it is around 25 to 100 spots on a fish - after that point, it really takes off.

Ich can be really sneaky - when it first starts up, the spots come an go in unison, giving you the false impression that you have it under control, then it returns all at once.

Do NOT dose peroxide in your tank without having access to a low range peroxide test kit (Water Works - Amazon). The reason why is the activity of the peroxide is based on the organic loading in the tank - and that changes based on how much peroxide you've added. You can add a small amount daily, until the organics are oxidized, and then boom, the peroxide is unreacted enough to kill your corals and inverts.

UV sterilizers help control ich, but will not cure advanced infections. Few of the "reef safe" ich medications actually work - they are sold to satisfy the demand, not because they are effective. Polyp Lab medic is a peroxide salt, a bit more stable than regular peroxide, it has worked for some folks with moderate cases of ich.

If they were my fish, I would move them to a treatment tank and dose with copper, and leave the DT fallow for at least 45 days at 81 degrees.

Jay

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

So - here is the issue: Cryptocaryon, saltwater ich multiplies geometrically. When the trophonts (the white spots you see) reach a certain number, nothing but a full copper treatment is going to stop them, it is called "propagule pressure" where the attacking ich parasites themselves cause the fish enough stress that no amount of "good food and pristine water" will cure them...you will lose very single fish. If the ich infection remains under that number, you can sometimes manage ich with UV sterilizers, good water conditions, and good food. Trouble is - nobody knows what that number is, or if it is the same number for every fish! Generally, it is around 25 to 100 spots on a fish - after that point, it really takes off.

Ich can be really sneaky - when it first starts up, the spots come an go in unison, giving you the false impression that you have it under control, then it returns all at once.

Do NOT dose peroxide in your tank without having access to a low range peroxide test kit (Water Works - Amazon). The reason why is the activity of the peroxide is based on the organic loading in the tank - and that changes based on how much peroxide you've added. You can add a small amount daily, until the organics are oxidized, and then boom, the peroxide is unreacted enough to kill your corals and inverts.

UV sterilizers help control ich, but will not cure advanced infections. Few of the "reef safe" ich medications actually work - they are sold to satisfy the demand, not because they are effective. Polyp Lab medic is a peroxide salt, a bit more stable than regular peroxide, it has worked for some folks with moderate cases of ich.

If they were my fish, I would move them to a treatment tank and dose with copper, and leave the DT fallow for at least 45 days at 81 degrees.

Jay

issue is I dont have the tank and setup for QTing these 5 fish, theyll probabl;y fight and also die of more stress from moving/small space and parameters being out of wack, its my first time dealing with sw disease so I'm not sure if I can do it,

so basically peroxide is like ozone correct?
Would running ozone help?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

issue is I dont have the tank and setup for QTing these 5 fish, theyll probabl;y fight and also die of more stress from moving/small space and parameters being out of wack, its my first time dealing with sw disease so I'm not sure if I can do it,

so basically peroxide is like ozone correct?
Would running ozone help?

Ozone won’t control ich, the contact time and dose can’t be set high enough without creating residual oxidants that will harm the invertebrates.
Sorry - there simply is no good way to control cases in mixed fish/invert tanks if the ich level reaches that tipping point. I don’t think you are there yet, but you’ll need to start polyp lab medic right away and cross your fingers!
Jay

 

[Wyvern]

issue is I dont have the tank and setup for QTing these 5 fish, theyll probabl;y fight and also die of more stress from moving/small space and parameters being out of wack, its my first time dealing with sw disease so I'm not sure if I can do it,

so basically peroxide is like ozone correct?
Would running ozone help?

I run ozone as well, but for clear water... And I run UV.

Ozone is like UV, it helps, but won't erradicate, it also requires carbon on the lid and effluent on the skimmer OR a reactor.
It also requires careful adjustment and use of an ORP controller, they are also kinda loud.

It looks like your options are multiple QT tanks, devided tank or manage it. Me personally wouldn't use copper in the display tank.

If it was ME I would qt the trigger and treat the display with h2o2 and monitor. It still wont get rid of ich, but if the trigger stays it could spread it faster and parish in the process.

Paraguard it a safer, less effective option, but still toxic to inverts while in the system.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

alright, I have some UV questions,

would it be better to plumb UV off of return or feed it with a pump directly from DT and back?

I do have limited space and 2 return pumps (would I need 2?), I can only mount them horizontally if I plumb onto return.

I'll just rely on UV, enriched diet, pristine water and medic for now and see how everything goes...

 

[threebuoys]

My UV is plumbed directly into the return line from the sump, so no extra pump needed. Get the highest wattage you can find. Be aware that most of the UV units available use the same replacement bulbs, so don't assume the higher priced ones are necessarily the best.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

My UV is plumbed directly into the return line from the sump, so no extra pump needed. Get the highest wattage you can find. Be aware that most of the UV units available use the same replacement bulbs, so don't assume the higher priced ones are necessarily the best.

the only UV sterilizers we have here are the AquaUV ones no pentair, the 25W and 57W are the size same and the 40W is way longer, dunno why they designed it like that,

is yours mounted vertically?