Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[wmo168]

Saw this today. Another type of algaefix. Thought’s? At least they list out the ingredient.

 

[Muffin87]

Saw this today. Another type of algaefix. Thought’s? At least they list out the ingredient.

Actually, since we're talking about other similar products. I wish the study had included:

Brightwell Razor Marine / Continuum Aquatics Equation M
These are "Complex systemic cleaning polymer products" and "flocculants" (From brightwell's website).
A couple of excerpts from a YouTube interview with Jeremy from Brightwell.

• Razor is a chemical that releases the foothold of the algae so like Bryopsis or any hair algae. It'll get in underneath the foothold of the algae, and you could actually vacuum it off the rock.
• Razor keeps the algae from actually adhering to the surface.
• Razor is claimed not to affect chaeto. It's got a pretty thick cell wall. Will affect GHA

@taricha, I get the feeling you'll be the expert on Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77 by now. Does this description match the mechanism by which these algaecides work?

It'd be useful to know if Razor / Equation M are a valid alternatives to Vibrant, or two other products to skip entirely.
Equation M product page says it is NOT an algaecide.

Caution: Not an algaecide. Do not use with an algaecide. Keep out of reach of children.

 

[avidhexagrammid]

Quaternary amines do not have a very characteristic IR signature.

Thank you. I also see you've now mentioned using ultrafiltration for sample preparation, which was something I had wondered about because these are mixtures and nobody has really talked about interference/masking.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you. I also see you've now mentioned using ultrafiltration for sample preparation, which was something I had wondered about because these are mixtures and nobody has really talked about interference/masking.

Not sure what you mean. There's no such thing as interference or masking of dissolved molecules like these in an NMR. If they are present, they show up, and if not, they do not.

 

[ReefdUp]

good Q.
Checking through my order history: Two bottles from BRS, at least three bottles of vibrant reef or salt from amazon, a bottle of vibrant fresh from amazon. Two additional partially used bottles sourced from other hobbyists who complained of "bad results" - one was a year old, one was said to be from 2018.
All were screened and found to have the same basic polyquat response as algaefix (3 bottles of that, too). Once I figured out how to generate a quantitative comparison, the two "bad batches" from hobbyists were measured vs algaefix and multiple of my vibrant bottles. No qualitative differences in the manner of response to polyquat tests, nor significant quantitative differences in the amount of response (proportional to product concentration) were found. The bottle from another hobbyist from 2018 measured 15-20% higher, but it was half-full and evaporation could possibly account for that.
For the professional lab tests, I sent 50mL samples poured out of one of my bottles of Vibrant, and one of Algaefix to a lab for 13C and 1H NMR (as I was highly motivated to avoid confusion, I only pulled Algaefix bottle out of storage, poured, capped, labeled, then put it back in storage before pulling the Vibrant bottle out of storage...lol ). For FTIR, I sent a different vibrant bottle (than the NMR test) that I had partially used to jeffww for testing.

I'm confident that the last bottle you used and the next one anyone opens will be the same as all the ones I looked at.

This is fantastic. Thanks for humoring me (quality control, tampering, and supply chain management are all in my wheelhouse; chemistry is definitely not!!) Great work; what a major contribution to the hobby!

 

[Screwgunner]

I used vibrant for 7 weeks it dissolved my green hair algea. And at the same time hundreds of pineapple spunges started growing in my sump on my pumps everywhere. But soon after I stopped it cyano started up. Then dinos . So I dosed dino x 5 doses and all my pineapple spunges are dieing. And my phosphates are .26 not good.

 

[taricha]

Saw this today. Another type of algaefix. Thought’s? At least they list out the ingredient.

5.4% is the same concentration as Tetra and Fritz product. Algaefix is 4.5%. Can't really complain about using an approved algaecide as a clearly labeled algaecide. Many people do and like the results. Many people like how vibrant behaves in their systems, and nothing that I or anyone else measured changed what's in the bottles.
Clarity allows users to be aware of risks.

Does this description match the mechanism by which these algaecides work?

It'd be useful to know if Razor / Equation M are a valid alternatives to Vibrant, or two other products to skip entirely.

nope. Brightwell couldn't plausibly claim it won't hurt chaeto if it were the polixetonium. At any dose where it would have a noticeable effect, you'd see it kill your chaeto.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

What about coralline? The API label claims it will not harm coralline, but I have seen reports from Vibrant users stating that their coralline died. Can the algaecide in these products harm coralline?

 

[rmorris_14]

What about coralline? The API label claims it will not harm coralline, but I have seen reports from Vibrant users stating that their coralline died. Can the algaecide in these products harm coralline?

It did not harm my coraline (in fact my started spreading quite well during use) but it also didn’t kill my GHA completely and I was using for months. I think it depends on the tank and the overall chemistry as to what side effects you witness, if I had to guess. I think it plausible that it might harm it. But just like other people had no ill effects, while some did, it’s hard to say for sure.

 

[deegee]

Actually, since we're talking about other similar products. I wish the study had included:

Brightwell Razor Marine / Continuum Aquatics Equation M
These are "Complex systemic cleaning polymer products" and "flocculants" (From brightwell's website).
A couple of excerpts from a YouTube interview with Jeremy from Brightwell.

• Razor is a chemical that releases the foothold of the algae so like Bryopsis or any hair algae. It'll get in underneath the foothold of the algae, and you could actually vacuum it off the rock.
• Razor keeps the algae from actually adhering to the surface.
• Razor is claimed not to affect chaeto. It's got a pretty thick cell wall. Will affect GHA

@taricha, I get the feeling you'll be the expert on Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77 by now. Does this description match the mechanism by which these algaecides work?

It'd be useful to know if Razor / Equation M are a valid alternatives to Vibrant, or two other products to skip entirely.
Equation M product page says it is NOT an algaecide.

the above products were in my thinking on all this as well…

 

[Reefahholic]

5.4% is the same concentration as Tetra and Fritz product. Algaefix is 4.5%. Can't really complain about using an approved algaecide as a clearly labeled algaecide. Many people do and like the results. Many people like how vibrant behaves in their systems, and nothing that I or anyone else measured changed what's in the bottles.
Clarity allows users to be aware of risks.


nope. Brightwell couldn't plausibly claim it won't hurt chaeto if it were the polixetonium. At any dose where it would have a noticeable effect, you'd see it kill your chaeto.

Clarity would be nice, but it looks like we have clarity now! Thx @taricha Honestly, I hate being lied to and I don’t care why they did it. I won’t be using that product again. I didn’t like the effect it had on my reef for the brief period that I tried it so it’s not a big deal. People will do or say anything to make money.

 

[ScottB]

how do we diagnose quaternary ammonium from them? Are we sure that quaternary ammonium is represented here?

Go back to the start of this thread. It has all the details.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wrote to UWC today to get an update on the timing of their results and they indicated that they should have the last of them today or tomorrow.

 

[rmorris_14]

I wrote to UWC today to get an update on the timing of their results and they indicated that they should have the last of them today or tomorrow.

I'm not holding my breath. But thanks for reaching out and trying to move things along!

 

[FishOkay]

I wrote to UWC today to get an update on the timing of their results and they indicated that they should have the last of them today or tomorrow.

What are they testing? Don't they know whats in their product.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What are they testing? Don't they know whats in their product.

I cannot answer what they know, but I guarantee that if a company I worked for (pharmaceutical companies, so the analogy is close) sold a product, and someone knowledgeable ran a test on that product that indicated a problem, the first thing we would do is run that test and see if we got the same result or a different result.

 

[FishOkay]

I see what you mean. It could be a manufacturing issue, as im sure it'll be made by another company. Well unless im wrong and they handle their own manufacturing. So I suppose that's the question was it mistake or a deliberate attempt to deceive.

 

[jcolliii]

If I were that company who does the manufacturing (if indeed there even is one), I would be quite worried about this blowing up on me - especially thinking about how the other entity in this circle is probably trying to figure out a way of avoiding blame and limiting liability. Would be interesting to know who that company is, if they exist, and whether they know what all is going on. Another interesting thing to know is whether anyone here on these forums lives near UWC's headquarters? Maybe find someone willing to do some sleuthing? Any chemical tanks out behind the building indicating that they make the stuff in-house?

 

[Sean Clark]

If I were that company who does the manufacturing (if indeed there even is one), I would be quite worried about this blowing up on me - especially thinking about how the other entity in this circle is probably trying to figure out a way of avoiding blame and limiting liability. Would be interesting to know who that company is, if they exist, and whether they know what all is going on. Another interesting thing to know is whether anyone here on these forums lives near UWC's headquarters? Maybe find someone willing to do some sleuthing? Any chemical tanks out behind the building indicating that they make the stuff in-house?

I am quite confident that UWC is getting exactly what they ordered from their supplier. I am also quite confident that they know exactly what they ordered from their supplier. UWC is not going to be the suppliers only customer and quality control incompantancy to this extreme would quickly render them (the supplier) out of business. No chance this is a manufacturing "error".

 

[jcolliii]

Totally agree... just trying to eliminate possibilities. I wonder if there might be a shortlist of companies that could be doing the manufacturing. I further wonder about what sort of cockamaimey story we will hear to attempt to explain how an algaecide got into Vibrant. I wonder further, what the manufacturer would have to say in the event that they received some blame in said cockamaimey story...