Upgrading from 90g to 165g, need HELP!

[NickAndrew]

Hello All!

this will more than likely be a lengthy post, I apologize in advance. I'd like to give you all a background on my current setup so I can get answers that will help!

Current tank: 90g display with 30g sump, running Current Orbit Marine Loop LED with 2 wave pumps. I have a sailfin tang, blonde naso tang, 2 mocha clowns, 2 maroon tangs, 1 cowfish, 1 cleaner shrimp, 2 red bubble tip anenomes, 3 turbo snails, 2 emerald crabs, and approximately 15-20 snails. I run a Reef Octopus Classic 1500-int skimmer. I have a DSB and 110 lbs of live rock. Tank has been running for exactly a year. All of my water RODI and salt water (used for water changes) come from the same store everytime. All of my live stock is also purchased from the same store. Water parameters are exactly the same as compared to my LFS.

The dilemma I am experiencing is I recently purchased a Red Sea Reefer XXL 650, 165g system. The tank will be delivered in early June. The new tank will be going in the exact spot my current tank is in (structurally sound per hired engineer, concrete slab block directly underneath wall where tank is and will be). I need advice on the following:

Do I take my current DSB and transfer to the new tank OR do I purchase new sand?
Do I use my current water and transfer to the new tank and add new SW from my LFS? OR do I purchase all new water?
I would like to add more live rock purchased from my LFS where original rock was purchased. If adding more LR to my new system will I experience a cycle?
If I purchase more LR from online sources such as BRS or others, will I experience a cycle? Is there a way to speed up the process? Can I mix my current live rock with other sources of rock?
Do I take my current filtration system (carbon pads, ammonia reducing pads placed in sump from overflow to return pump chamber) and place in corresponding compartments in the new sump?

Any suggestions on how to transfer my tanks is greatly appreciated!

 

[Arricefe]

Hi NickAndrew, I just recently did something similar, I went from 125 to 120. The 125 was where I wanted the 120 to go. What I did is drained the 125 into brutes and totes including rocks and livestock, I moved the tank to a temp location close tho where it was then I put everything back in. I set the 120 up with new sand and some additional rock I then added all my water change water into the 120 for a couple of months and let it cycle. When it was time to swap I drained the 120 of all the water it had then added 25 gallons of new saltwater; pumped water from my 125, moved all the rocks and coral from the 125, then the fish. Everything survived. I don't know if you have the luxury of moving your current tank and setting up the new one too. You can move your rocks and livestock into some containers, save as much water from your old tank as you can, if you use your current sand you run the risk of stirring up detritus that you don't want in your water column, you could rinse it but it's going to add a few hours to your project or you could start with new sand, that's what I did. It's an unwanted expense but it turned out to be worth it to me.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Wow, lots to answer. Here's a few comments:

The first one is to purchase a functional RODI system so that you can make your own saltwater. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than purchasing pre-made saltwater, not to mention RODI for top-off water.

With respect to the DSB, take a look at a few of Brandon's posts (the "reef vase" guy). He's got pretty good evidence that if you siphon out all of your sand, flush it really thoroughly with tap water to remove all detritus and silt, and then put it back in the tank, nothing bad will happen, as most of the bacterial capacity is in the live rock.

I'm presuming that you're talking about actually adding more "dead" rock from BRS and/or the LFS. The only rock you can purchase nowadays is completely dead rock - either newly made artificial rock or mined fossilized rock ala Marco rocks. These have no organics in them, and cannot cause a cycle. It was the case as little as a year ago that you could get dead natural rock that might have dead sponges and other critters in it, so that needed to be treated to remove the dead critters to avoid a cycle. Since Fiji and Indonesia shut down to all rock exports, that's no longer the case. There is one other option - you can buy actual live rock from KP Aquatics or Tampa Bay Saltwater that is aquacultured rock from the Gulf of Mexico. That would have to be handled a little differently, as it actually is live rock.

You really don't need to worry about moving existing filtration pads from your old system to your new one. Ammonia reducing pads don't work in saltwater, and presuming that your tank's been set up a while and the rock's fully cycled, there's no ammonia to remove anyway. And any carbon filtration that you have in the existing tank has been completely saturated unless you change it quite frequently. Many of us don't run GAC at all unless we have something specific we want to remove from the water, like medication.

 

[NickAndrew]

Thanks guys! I appreciate your feedback and guidance. Dkeller-so do you think that if I drain my tank and reuse my current water and rock siphon the sand bed and rinse then put into the new tank I won’t experience a cycle? I wish that my house had another spot for my new tank so I could just run the 2 simultaneously but I just don’t have the room. So I’d have to drain the current tank and setup the new tank practically in the same day. I have fish that I don’t want to risk losing in the process. Thanks I look forward to your response.

Arricefe-i w

 

[NickAndrew]

A-I wish I had the space to do as you suggested but I don’t. I know the ideal thing is to set it up and cycle it but space is a problem. Plus I decided to go with the 200g reefer instead of the 135 reefer so support would also be an issue with both tanks on the same wall.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Wow, that's definitely going to be a massive amount of work in one day.

This would be my suggestion - buy some extra inexpensive equipment in case something goes wrong so that you won't lose your livestock. Get a couple of large brute trash cans, a couple of extra 100 watt eheim-jager heaters, two tetra air pumps (or two hydor circulation pumps), airstones and airline tubing. If something goes wrong in the new tank setup or takedown of the old one, this will save your keister, as you've essentially two ready-made heated and aerated tanks to put your livestock in for a couple of days if necessary. In advance, fill these two brutes with RODI water, then get it circulating and heated at 1.026 (or whatever you rung your current tank at). If you've lots of corals, do your best to match the alkalinity of the new water to the water in your existing tank.

On the day of the move, siphon out 2/3rds of the water into a 3rd brute trash can through a filter sock. Remove your live rock into a cooler or other water proof container, possibly giving it a good rinse with saltwater if it's full of detritus. Cover the rock with wet newspaper, and close the lid. That'll keep the rock "live" for a couple of hours while you attend to other matters. Capture your fish and put them into one of the brute trash cans with the new, circulating and heated water. Siphon out all of the sand into buckets, and rinse the snot out of it under running hose water until the water runs clear. Put that sand into your new tank, then the rock, and use the filtered water from your tank and the new water from one of the brute trash cans to partially fill the new tank. Place your rock where you want it. Remove half of the water from the brute that has the fish in it to the new tank to make them easier to catch. Capture the fish and put them in the new tank, then use the rest of the water from their trash can to fill the tank the rest of the way.

The reason for doing this is that if something goes wrong - you don't have the right fittings for the new tank, you discover the floor needs to be leveled, the sump leaks, the new return pump doesn't work, etc..., etc..., you can put the rock from the old tank into one of the brute trash cans with heated circulating water, put a few pieces in the other can with the fish and corals, and you'll be good for a few days until you get the problem corrected. It's not uncommon for the best laid plans to go astray, and you don't want to lose your livestock if that happens.

 

[NickAndrew]

Wow, that's definitely going to be a massive amount of work in one day.

This would be my suggestion - buy some extra inexpensive equipment in case something goes wrong so that you won't lose your livestock. Get a couple of large brute trash cans, a couple of extra 100 watt eheim-jager heaters, two tetra air pumps (or two hydor circulation pumps), airstones and airline tubing. If something goes wrong in the new tank setup or takedown of the old one, this will save your keister, as you've essentially two ready-made heated and aerated tanks to put your livestock in for a couple of days if necessary. In advance, fill these two brutes with RODI water, then get it circulating and heated at 1.026 (or whatever you rung your current tank at). If you've lots of corals, do your best to match the alkalinity of the new water to the water in your existing tank.

On the day of the move, siphon out 2/3rds of the water into a 3rd brute trash can through a filter sock. Remove your live rock into a cooler or other water proof container, possibly giving it a good rinse with saltwater if it's full of detritus. Cover the rock with wet newspaper, and close the lid. That'll keep the rock "live" for a couple of hours while you attend to other matters. Capture your fish and put them into one of the brute trash cans with the new, circulating and heated water. Siphon out all of the sand into buckets, and rinse the snot out of it under running hose water until the water runs clear. Put that sand into your new tank, then the rock, and use the filtered water from your tank and the new water from one of the brute trash cans to partially fill the new tank. Place your rock where you want it. Remove half of the water from the brute that has the fish in it to the new tank to make them easier to catch. Capture the fish and put them in the new tank, then use the rest of the water from their trash can to fill the tank the rest of the way.

The reason for doing this is that if something goes wrong - you don't have the right fittings for the new tank, you discover the floor needs to be leveled, the sump leaks, the new return pump doesn't work, etc..., etc..., you can put the rock from the old tank into one of the brute trash cans with heated circulating water, put a few pieces in the other can with the fish and corals, and you'll be good for a few days until you get the problem corrected. It's not uncommon for the best laid plans to go astray, and you don't want to lose your livestock if that happens.

So my plan is once the new tank is delivered I’m going to wash it out and let it fill to check for leaks and cracks. The new pump was ordered yesterday so I’m going to set it up in my current tank and test run. Then follow all your instructions as to the move. My other plan is to buy more rock this week and place it in my sump so it has time to obtain bacteria and such. The sand bed instructions sound perfect as such that is what I will do. I do not have corals so that is not a concern for me, I just have FOWLR. Another problem that I have encountered is actually heating. All the Hearst’s I have come across are not safe for acrylic sumps and I am uncertain if the sump included with the Red Seas are acrylic or glass. And the heaters for such a large tank are very long. Any suggestions on that?

 

[NickAndrew]

Also, how do I prevent transferring any possible bristleworms from my current tank to the new tank? If when I rinse my current sand will that rid them from the sand? If I freshwater dip my current live rock will that rid them from the rocks if they exists? Will that kill my bacteria on the rocks as well? I apologize about my millions of questions and I appreciate everyone’s help!

QUOTE="Dkeller_nc, post: 5970600, member: 118631"]Wow, that's definitely going to be a massive amount of work in one day.

This would be my suggestion - buy some extra inexpensive equipment in case something goes wrong so that you won't lose your livestock. Get a couple of large brute trash cans, a couple of extra 100 watt eheim-jager heaters, two tetra air pumps (or two hydor circulation pumps), airstones and airline tubing. If something goes wrong in the new tank setup or takedown of the old one, this will save your keister, as you've essentially two ready-made heated and aerated tanks to put your livestock in for a couple of days if necessary. In advance, fill these two brutes with RODI water, then get it circulating and heated at 1.026 (or whatever you rung your current tank at). If you've lots of corals, do your best to match the alkalinity of the new water to the water in your existing tank.

On the day of the move, siphon out 2/3rds of the water into a 3rd brute trash can through a filter sock. Remove your live rock into a cooler or other water proof container, possibly giving it a good rinse with saltwater if it's full of detritus. Cover the rock with wet newspaper, and close the lid. That'll keep the rock "live" for a couple of hours while you attend to other matters. Capture your fish and put them into one of the brute trash cans with the new, circulating and heated water. Siphon out all of the sand into buckets, and rinse the snot out of it under running hose water until the water runs clear. Put that sand into your new tank, then the rock, and use the filtered water from your tank and the new water from one of the brute trash cans to partially fill the new tank. Place your rock where you want it. Remove half of the water from the brute that has the fish in it to the new tank to make them easier to catch. Capture the fish and put them in the new tank, then use the rest of the water from their trash can to fill the tank the rest of the way.

The reason for doing this is that if something goes wrong - you don't have the right fittings for the new tank, you discover the floor needs to be leveled, the sump leaks, the new return pump doesn't work, etc..., etc..., you can put the rock from the old tank into one of the brute trash cans with heated circulating water, put a few pieces in the other can with the fish and corals, and you'll be good for a few days until you get the problem corrected. It's not uncommon for the best laid plans to go astray, and you don't want to lose your livestock if that happens.[/QUOTE]

 

[rayyou94]

So I would definitely use the live rock and IMO should be able to maintain the cycle with the rock. The sand I think new because a year old sand is usually yucky and live sand is live anyways. If u have any marine pure blocks and such love it into the new sump and that will definitely speed up the cycle if not just already cycled. And the water I say that u salvage as much clean water as u can and when I say clean just take as much out as u can while leaving like an inch or two on the bottom. Ofc take the water out before u try to catch anything or move rocks and that’s just gonna cloud up the water

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Almost all glass-type heaters are safe for acrylic sumps; they don't get hot enough to actually distort or melt acrylic. If you're looking for compactness, Finnex's titanium heaters are considerably smaller than glass-types. And, btw, as far as I'm aware Red Sea, Water Box and others supply glass sumps with their tanks.

As far as bristleworms, you can't avoid having them in a reef tank, and they're useful as a clean up crew. If you've an excessive amount of them, you can pour selzer water over the rock as you're removing it from the tank and transferring it to the heated saltwater bin; that'll force some of them out of the rock without destroying the batcerial load.