Velvet or brook?

[Teufel72]

I have a powder Brown tang that was looking dusty and staying in the water Flow. And it was getting worst. I was sure it was velvet. So I gave him fw dip. It seem to have help but during the bath it seem to lose color at Some spot. After Being back in the tank it seem to have exces mucus wich I did not notice before now I am NOT so sure about velvet or brook?
One of my clown show Some symptomes too( little dusty} all fish are eating good so far. But à couples of day back I lost 2 anthias with no symptomes at all.
The picture make the tang whiter Then it is.

 

[Flippers4pups]

When you did the dip, did you see anything fall off? How long has the tang been this way?

 

[Big G]

Swimming into a powerhead is one of the symptoms of velvet. Time is your enemy. You must act quickly to try to save some of the fish.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Look like velvet but I’m no expert

 

[Teufel72]

When you did the dip, did you see anything fall off? How long has the tang been this way?

Notice it like wednesday or thursday evening. i did the dip tonight like an hour before the picture. i saw nothing fall off.

 

[Teufel72]

Another pic but no flash

 

[Big G]

With velvet, a freshwater dip removes some of the parasites off of the gills, giving the fish a bit better breathing. It will buy you some time. A freshwater dip, immediately followed by a bath in acriflavine (Ruby Reef Rally is the easiest version to find) and then ramp up copper to therapeutic levels within 48 hours. Regular small doses of copper are best, rather than a couple of big doses. It's easier on the fish. Suggest using Copper Power; not Coppersafe. There have been numerous recent problems with Coppersafe's strength varying from bottle to bottle. Also suggest you prepare to treat for bacterial infections that often follow from the velvet parasite's numerous insertion points into the skin of the fish. Kanaplex, Metroplex and Furna2 is the suggested treatment for those infections.

 

[scuzy]

Definitely velvet. Man it sucks it's very fast killer.

 

[kp1991]

Looks like velvet too me....ripped trough my tank and killed everything in a matter of days act now if you value your fish that disease is no joke

 

[kp1991]

Looks like velvet too me....ripped trough my tank and killed everything in a matter of days act now if you value your fish that disease is no joke

Also tangs are ich mags could be that 2 You probably already know this but qt is the way to go and if thats the dt that theyre in you gotta falllow its the only way to clean out the display unfortunately 72days sux i know im going through it right now... i feel your pain lost a baby hippo tang to velvet[emoji17]

 

[scuzy]

If you can't count the dots it's not ich. Cause that's definitely velvet.

 

[Teufel72]

Definitely velvet. Man it sucks it's very fast killer.

sadly yes

 

[Maritimer]

Sorry to read that, Teufel72.

Your other fish - all of them - are also affected. Have a look at the article on velvet and its treatment, by our own Humblefish, posted above by Big_G, and follow that protocol. Tangs are particularly susceptible, but no fish is immune. Get them in to a QT and under treatment, yesterday if at all possible, and maintain your display without fish for the next six weeks to starve it out in that tank.

~Bruce

 

[Christopher Davis]

Definitely velvet! Act now! I just had to go through the same thing lost 3 of my fish. Depending on how bad infestation is I would get to therapeutic Levels for cooper immediately. I had to do it but my fish tangs and wrasses and one clown are still with me right now, it’s been a week in copper.
To many dots=velvet

 

[Teufel72]

Thanks for all the advises

 

[HotRocks]

+1 to velvet. Please see @Humblefish advisory below. Act fast!

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas thetangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

• 5 minute freshwater dip
• Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60minutes max, but remove the fishimmediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, facemask, eye protection, etc.)whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

• After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
• While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
• Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

The long-winded version:

I’d like to explain in more detail about what the above mentioned treatments accomplish:

Freshwater dip - This is very useful for removing most of the “surface parasites”. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) bothreported that a single freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. I thought that would be enough to moveon to copper or CP in a QT. However, the fish I treated with just a freshwater dipand then in-tank QT treatment continually died. Therefore I came to the conclusion a chemical bath was also needed before being moved into QT treatment (see below). Here is how you perform a freshwater dip:

Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt alittle tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also,tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes.

Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal.”

Acriflavine - This is a new drug (to me anyway), but it seems to have a lot of potential as a replacement for formalin. It has a broad range of effect, beingeffective against both protozoans and bacterial infections. The latter gives it an advantage over using formalin, because all those tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet have the potential to get infected. You can also leave a fish in acriflavine longer than formalin, because it is not as harsh on the fish. Dosage varies by the product you are using, but for straight acriflavine (Acriflavine-MS) use 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water for a bath solution.

Formalin - Cheap, effective and readily available; formalin can sometimes evenbe sourced from a vet or local pharmacy (37% Formaldehyde is what you’re looking for). However, the downsides are numerous: First, it can be very harsh - some fish cannot even survive in it the full 60 minutes. Formalin will quickly deplete oxygen from the water, so it’s important to aerate heavily for 30 minutes before and also during the bath treatment. The bath should be done in a large glass bowl/container or small aquarium, as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. Finally, formalin is a known carcinogen, so precautions must be taken when handling it. Prevent your skin from coming into contact with it by wearing waterproof gloves, and protect your face by wearing a face mask and eye protection.

Even though I lost the butterfly I had treated with formalin, I still wanted to include it as a chemical bath option. In the past, I have successfully treated clownfish with Brooklynella by using formalin and also know those who have been successful using it to treat velvet as well, so it is not without its merits. However, there is anecdotal evidence that some fish treated with formalin will suddenly stop eating at a later date. So, similar to cyanide poisoning. I’ve alsoread that many fish treated with formalin do not live past 18-24 months, possibly dying of cancer. However, when faced with velvet and if formalin is your only viable option, 18-24 months is a heck of a lot better than just letting the fish die in a matter of days or even hours.

Methylene Blue - May be added to the formalin bath only. It is a healing agent, useful for treating the tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet.

Chloroquine phosphate/copper - While all of the above will remove the vast majority of velvet on a fish, some will inevitably survive. Within 4 days the remaining trophonts will drop off the fish, then encyst, and usually 48-96 hours later (although it can take up to 20+ days depending upon the strain) release dinospores (free swimmers) seeking to reinfect fish. The presence of CP or copper at therapeutic levels kills the dinospores, effectively shielding your fish from reinfection. It is important to note that CP/copper does not eradicate any other stage of velvet, just dinospores. It has zero impact on the parasites on the fish; they must “weather the storm” until the trophonts fall off. This is why it is so important to do a freshwater dip and chemical bath beforehand, to reduce the number of parasites feeding on your fish’s body & gills.

As mentioned in “The short version”, if you only have one QT to work with leave the fish in CP or copper for one month before performing water changes/running carbon. This will ensure the fish has been protected from reinfection before removing the medication. However, if you can transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank (at least 10 feet away from the QT) for observation then you may do so just 10-14 days after CP/copper treatment has begun. So long as therapeutic levels were continuously maintained for the 10-14 day period. Transfer nothing but the fish, and even as little water as possible with the fish (like doing Tank Transfer Method). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring, as that is “the shield” protecting the fish from reinfection. Once transferred, yourfish should have a “clean slate” in his new environment and have left behind all the velvet problems in the QT. Observe for at least 2 weeks before declaring your fish to be velvet free!

Chloroquine is considered the treatment of choice for velvet, because you can go from zero to full therapeutic all in one dose, without negatively affecting the fish. This is not the case with copper, as some fish can be overly sensitive to it and sometimes stop eating or even die. But with velvet, that’s a risk you’re just going to have to take if copper is the only viable option. Also, with CP anything from 40-80mg/gal should get the job done where velvet is concerned. I just dosed at the high end for my experiment, because I saw no downside in doing so.

Wide spectrum antibiotic - Velvet does A LOT of damage to a fish’s skin & gills. The trophont sits on the skin’s surfaceand puts out small rhyzoids (root-like structures) into the skin of the hostwhere it absorbs nutrients directly from the fish’s skin. With all those tinywounds, the likelihood of infection is high. This is something I missed in my earlier experiments where the fish died. Therefore, I consider it prudent to preemptively treat with Kanaplexand/or Furan-2 to ward off any potential bacterial infections which might arise.

Final thoughts:

• You need to move with a sense of urgency when a fish has velvet.This is not the same as dealing with ich. A fish with velvet may have days or just hours to livewithout prompt treatment.
• A small percentage of fish are thought to be capable of building up a natural or temporary immunity to velvet (and perhaps other parasites as well). Natural immunity is less understood, but temporary immunity usually only lasts 6 months max. During that time the fish is still a carrier and capable of infecting other fish. Over the years I have noticed this trend: Clownfish, mandarins and other fish with thick slime coatsare often the only fish left standing following a velvet wipeout.
• Disease masking: There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that fish treated with a non-therapeutic level of copper will not show symptoms of ich, velvet, brook, etc. for weeks. This is why it can be dangerous to buy from LFS who treat their fish with copper but donot test daily to ensure it remainswithin the therapeutic range.
• The lifecycle of velvet varies according to strain. The trophonts, which feed and do all the damage, can remain on a fish for as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. Common sense dictates you are more likely to save a fish with velvet if it’s a “12 hour variant” than one which feeds on the fish for 4 consecutive days, since the medication will not kill the trophonts still on the fish.
• Even after completing the freshwater dip and chemical bath, you will still see tiny dots all over the fish. This is because the dots you see are not the actual parasites. Velvet, like ich, is invisible to the naked eye in allforms. The dots or “dust” you are seeing is actually excess mucous buildup around the tiny insertion points. It will take a few days for this to diminish.
• If you can’t get acriflavine or formalin right away, daily freshwater dips may buy you more time. However, I’ve neversaved a fish just by doing freshwater dips and then treating with copper or CP.
• As mentioned previously, velvet dinospores (free swimmers) can remain infective for up to 15 days. By contrast, ich theronts only remain active for 48 hours,with infectivity greatly reduced just 6 - 8 hours after it leaves the cyst. What this means is thatvelvet has a lot more time to seek out and attach to a fish host, which partially explains why a fish with velvet is often covered in it.
• Velvet doesn’t take much of a break. Velvet tomonts release free swimmers every 4 days (on average). As mentioned above, those free swimmers can hang around for up to 15 days looking for fish to infect. Ich tomonts only release theronts (free swimmers) every 2-4 weeks (on average), with at least one strain taking up to 72 days. Since the trophont (feeding stage) remains on the fish for 3-7 days before dropping off, a fish with ich gets some relief in-between bombardments.
• Velvet likes light. As a dinoflagellate, velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining energy. So when a dinospore ruptures from its cyst, it propels upward (towards the light) by using whip-like appendages for locomotion. Therefore, top swimming fish are probably moreat risk than bottom dwellers. I highly suggest not using an aquarium light during treatment and also when running fallow for velvet (if possible in a fish only system).
• The study on aerosol transmission - which established the 10 foot rule - was done using velvet as the subject of the study. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292