TTM QT question RE: Brook and Velvet

[UnnamedReef]

Hey everyone,

I've got a pair of ocellaris clowns and a banggai cardinalfish in QT that I got from PetCo (I know, I know, but my local PetCo is actually very reputable and has a well-cared for SW section). I do hybrid TTM and have had several successful runs, these three fish are doing very well with no issues 9 days in.

I missed my peroxide bath last night when transferring the fish to their 2nd to last QT tank. Plan was to do the second peroxide bath exactly 6 days after before adding to DT. I got to thinking about it, and if my clowns brought in brook or velvet, wouldn't they already be dead? Are those diseases something a fish can carry through TTM then infect the DT without showing symptoms? Everything I've read says that untreated brook or velvet is a quick killer so I feel like I'd already know.

I'm certainly not opposed to extending my normally 14 day QT if I have to. I'm just wondering if because my fish have made it this long healthy, does that make them no risk to the DT for brook and velvet specifically? What about a single peroxide dip before the next QT tank, would that be satisfactory?

Thanks!

Shayne

 

[lapin]

I never dipped my fish. I just did the 14 days. Every 36 hour transfer with prazi pro at day 7 and day 14 for 1 hour before introducing them to my display.

 

[UnnamedReef]

Gotcha, I don't use prazi pro, the H2O2 dips were to replace the benefits against brook, velvet, flukes that prazi pro offers. I've been doing 72 hour transfers, should I be doing 36 instead? What parasite's life cycle is outrun by doing 36?

 

[lapin]

Tank Transfer Method For Velvet

Below is a TTM schedule which will eliminate both Ich & velvet:

Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours

^^ No chemicals (such as H2O2) required.

 

[UnnamedReef]

Wow, that's a lot of transfers. Do you consider it more effective than H2O2 dips 6 days apart? I like the idea of a medication free QT, but that's a lot of salt, bleach, and attention to pull off.

 

[lapin]

You don’t need much bleach just mix with watering. if you allow it to total dry…..hair dryer it’s doable. I have 2 sets of everything needed. Pumps air lines stones cover pvc hiding places. The hardest is picking the hour to start so your not up at 2am doing a transfer

 

[EricR]

TTM isn't popular on this site but I use HTTM like I think you had planned.
Sounds like you've now strayed from that.
Acceptable risk is up to each individual but attempting any method only partially is not likely to have much success.

I think your current mindset is that everything seems fine so maybe you don't need to follow through.
It's possible that you won't have any issues and possible that the fish were completely healthy with no parasites from the beginning,,, but who knows?

 

[Jekyl]

Unfamiliar with the method you are using. With most quarantine protocols if the methods aren't strictly followed you can end with issues. If issues do persist, here is the method recommended by the local fish expert.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[UnnamedReef]

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to H2O2 dip next transfer and extend my QT to allow for another dip 6 days after, which will end up being a slightly longer than minimum HTTM to play it safe

 

[Jekyl]

@Jay Hemdal any insight into the process?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal any insight into the process?

TTM is something I gave up on back in 1987, it is a cool idea, but implementation is a problem.

It doesn’t work for protozoans and parasites that have direct development, it causes a lot of extra stress from all the handling. Adding peroxide is supposed to overcome some shortcomings, but it is not a panacea, and dosing without test strips is problematic…you don’t know the available reactive dose unless you test.

To me, the extra handling is a deal killer - newly acquired fish need a stable environment in which to settle in. TTM is the antithesis of stable.

Jay

 

[UnnamedReef]

Thank you Jay, I hadn't really considered the handling end of it. To me HTTM is attractive because it isn't a 2 month long ordeal, and I like the idea of not using meds. I've been pretty good about setting my tanks up ~24 hours in advance to get salinity just right, and a square colander keeps the fish off my hands and they can't run for too long.

I understand TTM and HTTM aren't the "safest" ways to QT. For any QT regimen there's risk, and boxing that risk is hard to pin down. Since I have a pretty simple 55 gallon the stakes are lower for me than some. I'm going to pay a lot more attention to my handling, always looking for ways to do it better if you have any recommendations

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay, I hadn't really considered the handling end of it. To me HTTM is attractive because it isn't a 2 month long ordeal, and I like the idea of not using meds. I've been pretty good about setting my tanks up ~24 hours in advance to get salinity just right, and a square colander keeps the fish off my hands and they can't run for too long.

I understand TTM and HTTM aren't the "safest" ways to QT. For any QT regimen there's risk, and boxing that risk is hard to pin down. Since I have a pretty simple 55 gallon the stakes are lower for me than some. I'm going to pay a lot more attention to my handling, always looking for ways to do it better if you have any recommendations

Just to further beat this particular horse (grin), take a look at the second paragraph of this excerpt from some text I wrote:

“Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM)
A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of the life cycle of the organism—moving the infected fish to a new aquarium at the point where the tomonts are produced, potentially breaking the life cycle. In real-world applications, multiple tank moves are required because, as mentioned above, the ich parasites are rarely in perfect synchronicity. This process can be physically damaging to fish, and ammonia levels can build up too high in the containers between transfers. In addition, the method does not control flukes, and may not control Amyloodinium (velvet). “Hybrid TTM”, using the addition of hydrogen peroxide at two points in the process has been touted as a way around this deficiency. The trouble with that is that “dips” in general are rarely 100% effective for parasites, and fluke eggs will not be controlled at all.

There are also diseases that simply do not manifest themselves within the shortened timeline of TTM. You then risk introducing those diseases into your DT (display tank) due to the shortened time for the TTM over that of the more typical 40+ day quarantine methods. Some of those diseases are not treatable, but you definitely don't want them getting into your main aquarium.... Myxosporidians, viruses, etc. Remember, part of the reason to run a full quarantine on new fish is to protect your existing fish from any diseases they may be carrying.

Avoid using opaque buckets or bins for TTM. You need to have clear lateral viewing of new fish to screen them for other issues, like not eating well, fighting, etc. Remember that TTM is rather stressful, moving the fish like that, and with newly acquired fish, stress reduction is vital.

Another drawback to TTM is that it really only works for newly acquired fish. If you have an existing aquarium, and the fish develop ich, you can't remove them and use TTM because at the end of the run, you need a clean tank to house them and your DT will have been recently infected and will still be in its fallow period. Copper and hyposalinity require longer treatment periods, so you can't run them unless you have a stable treatment tank - and therefore, the fish can be housed in that tank until your display has run fallow long enough.