Vodka Dosing killing my entire tank!!!!

[rayn]

First sorry about the losses, always sucks. Don't be to quick to blame the vodka, especially if you went as slow as you say you did. I am dosing two tanks...because it works. One a fowlr, and it has worked for a year now no issues. Second a mixed reef with lps, sps, and a carpet for a bit, no issues. Always watch your fish/coral for reaction to whatever you add. But the big thing I watch for with vodka is a possible overdose and a bacterial bloom turning the tank white. If you didn't have that, I would guess the vodka was the culprit.

As mentioned though, you are quarantining your new additions before adding, right?

 

[IBEW41]

18 fish in a 80g tank?what is your quarantine procedure?that many fish in a small tank like that you will have high nitrates even doing 30% changes what test kits are you using

 

[eagle]

I'd say you didn't read much about carbon dosing killing fish because it hasn't been happening. If it was then there would be 1000 threads everywhere about it. I would look at other areas to make sure you don't lose the rest of your fish.

 

[Falcon]

Sorry duplicate.

 

[Falcon]

I know this is an old thread but basically I've had a similar experience to the OP and lab testing of cultures from one of my fish identified a pathogen normal quite common in freshwater had evolved/become potent enough to attack fish in the liver.

My other tank using the same sources of water etc but without vodka dosing did not experience this problem with fish.What I'm basically saying is that IME vodka dosing is indeed dangerous and can boost growth of certain pathogens to the detriment of your fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know this is an old thread but basically I've had a similar experience to the OP and lab testing of cultures from one of my fish identified a pathogen normal quite common in freshwater had evolved/become potent enough to attack fish in the liver.

My other tank using the same sources of water etc but without vodka dosing did not experience this problem with fish.What I'm basically saying is that IME vodka dosing is indeed dangerous and can boost growth of certain pathogens to the detriment of your fish.

It is certainly theoretically possible and the mechanism would be clear. I'd have to say it is very hard to pin cause and effect in those cases where it happens, however, because so many things happen in reef tanks for reasons we never understand, and so anything that is reasonably common practice could easily become "associated" with a problem, even if it isn't the cause.

Vaccination and autism is a perfect case in point.

 

[Rjramos]

Maybe the alcohol has an effect on the fish similar to us humans. Lower defenses against infections and health problems. Don't the doctors say, Don't drink alcohol while on anti-biotics.

 

[Cory]

If you dose too much, oxygen can get very low and the fish will "suffocate" and die. Thats one reason why a skimmer is essential. I doubt the virus idea, but anythings possible.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I am trying to understand what is going on in an aquarium for some time know. A never ending story.
First of all I do not understand why FOWLR tanks are used. Why all the very expensive ( Belgium) live rock in a fish only tank as a simple and cheap bio-filter can do a lot more for managing a fish only thank.
Probably the problem was insufficient filtration capacity in combination with a broken food chain.
Dosing ethanol produces protein which must be consumed, normally by zooplankton. In a fish only thank without a refugium most the zooplankton is consumed by the fish as end user.
To reduce the nitrate level only a bit more as the daily nitrate overproduction must be removed daily.
By carbon dosing the nitrate is assimilated into biomass of which most stays in the system and is not removed at all. A cycle is created from NO3 to NO3 including nitrification. It becomes part of the food chain. This should be no problem as long as the chain is not broken and the water column contains all elements to support the biosynthesis and respiration induced by the dosed carbon. Normally the growth is limited by the availability of usable carbon within the organic waste. This waste contains the necessary other building elements.
When consumed some of it will be stored in the biomass of the consumer and most released as ammonia and a bit ureum.
If the cultivated protein ( bacteria) is not consumed in time it will build up , die and decay.
Nitriet formation was noticed. Insufficient filtration capacity ?
Did carbon dosing caused the problem? It certainly did not help in avoiding it.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

following

 

[rosshamsandwich]

what happened

 

[Durgesh Nair]

Can anyone help me out from high nitrate currently my nitrate is 160ppm and have started Vodaka dosing. My tank is 58gallon What I have to do to reduce nitrate. Also I can found green algea in my tank. Can anyone help me. Durgesh Nair

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can anyone help me out from high nitrate currently my nitrate is 160ppm and have started Vodaka dosing. My tank is 58gallon What I have to do to reduce nitrate. Also I can found green algea in my tank. Can anyone help me. Durgesh Nair

Dosing vodka is a fine plan. It takes time.

How much are you dosing, and how long have you been doing so?

 

[DarkSky]

I will be using a ATS to help keep algae lower. I just don't like using chemicals such as GFO to eliminate nitrates or phosphates. I take a more natural approach to think mostly or like to take a more natural approach.

Ferric Oxide has been around in nature heck of a lot longer than algae.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Can anyone help me out from high nitrate currently my nitrate is 160ppm and have started Vodaka dosing. My tank is 58gallon What I have to do to reduce nitrate. Also I can found green algea in my tank. Can anyone help me. Durgesh Nair

Vodka? To remove 160ppm?
You have installed an adequate autotrophic ammonium reduction capacity.!
Removing this quantity nitrogen by heterotrophic assimilation may remove the installed carrying capacity and replace it by daily dosing. Nitrate will be removed when most ammonium in the water column is used up, installed nitrifying biofilms may die off which will also remove there denitrification capacity. At the end no nitrate will be produced any more and the carrying capacity of the system will be dependable of the daily dosing. I hope you started with very small doses for preventing starving the present biofilms in a short time. If the dosing works I would continue with very small doses, If the weekly nitrate overproduction rate is known ( measuring the nitrate level and once again a week later, just before lights on) one can base the doses on this amount of nitrogen to remove. When a bit more as the daily production of nitrogen is removed daily the level will decent. It will take a lot of time when it is done the safe way, based on a known parameter, but doing it this way will prevent the carrying capacity to shift completely to heterotrophic ammonium reduction and make the aquarium system dependable of dosing. When able to reduce the level with 1ppm daily it will take +- 1/2 year.

The main question to ask are : why all this nitrate may have build up? Why ammonia is reduced mainly by nitrifiers? Why produced nitrate is not reduced?
What are the available nutrients and building materials in the tank? Using GFO? How many phosphate is available in this tank. Enough to remove 160ppm by assimilation? Maybe the heterotrophs where already limited in there growth due to limited availability of building materials and the carbohydrates present could not be consumed. More carbo hydrates may be added without asking the question: What is limiting heterotropic - and algae growth, as there in more than enough nitrate to support this growth?

If the dosing does not change much one must look to other parameters, in the first place phosphate. If phosphate is very low and GFO is used DO NOT REMOVE IT but build it down very slowly. A high amount of carbohydrates, which may have accumulated, may induce such an explosive growth which may consume oxygen faster as it can be provided.

Reducing such an amount of nitrate can be done by BADES- reactors without influencing the existing balance much. The use of BADES biofilm reactors and BADES columns can only be advised for systems with a suitable waste production, mixed reefs, fish only, etc..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nitrate will be removed when most ammonium in the water column is used up, .

I'm not sure that necessarily follows, but ammonia is typically quite low to begin with and it might be "used up" (meaning a new, possibly lower steady state concentration is reached), very quickly. Might just be a couple of days.

FWIW, I think it is a mistake to assume all of the organic carbon dosed by reefers is used by bacteria. At least with vinegar (that I used), many higher organisms (corals, sponges, etc.) also take it up. What proportion in a typical reef tank is consumed by bacteria and other microbes, and what fraction by large organisms is, as far as I known, not known.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'm not sure that necessarily follows, but ammonia is typically quite low to begin with and it might be "used up" (meaning a new, possibly lower steady state concentration is reached), very quickly. Might just be a couple of days.

FWIW, I think it is a mistake to assume all of the organic carbon dosed by reefers is used by bacteria. At least with vinegar (that I used), many higher organisms (corals, sponges, etc.) also take it up. What proportion in a typical reef tank is consumed by bacteria and other microbes, and what fraction by large organisms is, as far as I known, not known.

Heterotrophs use ammonium +- 5 x faster as autotrohps. If the growth of hetertrophs is not limited ( which is always the case in nature) by supplemental organic carbon , the source does not matter much for the priciple , they will use up most produced ammonia before it becomes available to the autotrophs in a biofilm. The autotrophs may be able to use the left overs, maybe not. The first layer of a nitrifying biofilm are mostly heterotrophs, unnatural growth will prevent the autotrops to recieve enough oxygen and ammonia to continue to do what they are supposed to do.

I never assumed that all organics are used by bacteria so I did not make that mistake. Of coarse one can not estimate every process but the competition for nutrients between different types of bacteria is a well studied issue and since some time it is also known why bacteria do what they do and the pathways they can use and when they may use them. Every day new bacteria and new pathways are detected.

Advice for carbon dosing should always be accompanied by the explanation of the risks and how to avoid them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Advice for carbon dosing should always be accompanied by the explanation of the risks and how to avoid them.

What do you consider to be the risk? lack of ammonia reduction capacity?

Has there ever been a case of someone who got elevated (toxic) ammonia from dosing organic carbon? If not, is that a real risk?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

What do you consider to be the risk? lack of ammonia reduction capacity?

Has there ever been a case of someone who got elevated (toxic) ammonia from dosing organic carbon? If not, is that a real risk?

How many hobbyist are able to lay the link? The shift from an autotropic to an heterotropic carrying capacity is a fact, not fiction! When dosing is stopped there is a severe risk for ammonia build up. There has been a lot of problems which can de linked to carbon dosing when the dosing is interrupted or stopped . Even system crashes!!

 

[zyer1090]

The only kind of vodka dosing I'll do is to my stomach. Adding it to the tank can give some immediate effective that seems beneficial but its like the calm before the storm and eventually you'll have big algae outbreak or livestocks start dying.