Vodka dosing query

[gatekeeperdi]

Hi there,

I have recently started dosing vodka as a carbon source to try to reduce my nitrates. They are 25-50 on a salifert nitrate kit. I was running a Deltec nitrate reactor but I was needing to clean out the mulm every 2 weeks so the water going through the reactor was never getting high enough to reduce the tank nitrate.

I am on week 3 of the dosing cycle using the chart on the notes from the trenches article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

My display tank is 64" x 30" x 24" and the sump is 44"x 26" x 12". Total gross volume is 258 US gallons (979 litres). I am starting on the cautious side by only dosing for 600 litres net volume as I have a fair bit of live rock in the display as well as a skimmer, a phosphate reactor and some chaeto in the sump.

My query is, why from week 3 you increase the amount of vodka by 0.5ml per week regardless of tank volume but, prior to this the dose is calculated by water volume?

Thanks, Di

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've never thought that dosing chart was reasonable since it does not scale with tank size as I would do so.

 

[gatekeeperdi]

I've never thought that dosing chart was reasonable since it does not scale with tank size as I would do so.

Thanks. It does seem odd to me.

What would you recommend as a weekly increase in vodka dose for my tank please?
Thanks.

 

[Squamosa]

Hi there,

I have recently started dosing vodka as a carbon source to try to reduce my nitrates. They are 25-50 on a salifert nitrate kit. I was running a Deltec nitrate reactor but I was needing to clean out the mulm every 2 weeks so the water going through the reactor was never getting high enough to reduce the tank nitrate.

I am on week 3 of the dosing cycle using the chart on the notes from the trenches article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

My display tank is 64" x 30" x 24" and the sump is 44"x 26" x 12". Total gross volume is 258 US gallons (979 litres). I am starting on the cautious side by only dosing for 600 litres net volume as I have a fair bit of live rock in the display as well as a skimmer, a phosphate reactor and some chaeto in the sump.

My query is, why from week 3 you increase the amount of vodka by 0.5ml per week regardless of tank volume but, prior to this the dose is calculated by water volume?

Thanks, Di

Hi there

A couple of questions:

What coral do you keep?
Do you want a ULNS for sps corals as an example?
What were you running your nitrates at previously?

To answer your question, you stick to the column values you have chosen (I would choose the 250g column, personally, as you have very high NO3) and follow the dosing volumes laid out.
E.g:
Day 1-3 dose 1 ml/day
Day 4-7 increase the dose to 2ml/day
Week 2 dose 2.5 ml/day
Week 3 dose 3 ml/day
And so on...

Test at the beginning and end of the week to see if the NO3 level has started to drop (it will start to drop and continue dropping).
At the end of week 3 if you don't see any drop in NO3 I would suggest you add another 1 ml to your daily dose. The reason for this is you have a high tank volume and high NO3 levels and at the rate the dosing charts suggest, it might take you several weeks to see a drop in NO3 levels.

Of course, dropping your NO3 too fast and keeping the value really low can have detrimental effects on your corals i.e. colour fade and recession, but dropping your NO3 in this way over many weeks won't generally do any harm I.M.O.

Once your NO3 levels reach a value that is desired, cut the vodka dose back by 1/2 a day, this will be what is called a maintenance dose to keep your NO3 level steady.

Good luck

 

[Squamosa]

Thanks. It does seem odd to me.

What would you recommend as a weekly increase in vodka dose for my tank please?
Thanks.

I personally increase the dose by 0.5 ml every day and keep checking the values!

 

[Tautog]

I read that thread on vodka dosing, and pictures don't lie. I would like to get those results, but I don't have high nitrates. I have a DSB, and I'm a little worried about it. I don't drink anymore, but I can always start. Adding sugar, raw sugar, should also do the trick

 

[gatekeeperdi]

Hi there

A couple of questions:

What coral do you keep?
Do you want a ULNS for sps corals as an example?
What were you running your nitrates at previously?

To answer your question, you stick to the column values you have chosen (I would choose the 250g column, personally, as you have very high NO3) and follow the dosing volumes laid out.
E.g:
Day 1-3 dose 1 ml/day
Day 4-7 increase the dose to 2ml/day
Week 2 dose 2.5 ml/day
Week 3 dose 3 ml/day
And so on...

Test at the beginning and end of the week to see if the NO3 level has started to drop (it will start to drop and continue dropping).
At the end of week 3 if you don't see any drop in NO3 I would suggest you add another 1 ml to your daily dose. The reason for this is you have a high tank volume and high NO3 levels and at the rate the dosing charts suggest, it might take you several weeks to see a drop in NO3 levels.

Of course, dropping your NO3 too fast and keeping the value really low can have detrimental effects on your corals i.e. colour fade and recession, but dropping your NO3 in this way over many weeks won't generally do any harm I.M.O.

Once your NO3 levels reach a value that is desired, cut the vodka dose back by 1/2 a day, this will be what is called a maintenance dose to keep your NO3 level steady.

Good luck

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I've got a mixed reef with some Sps, Lps and softies along with a mixed bag of fish.

I don't really want to run a full on ulns to be honest. Despite the high nitrate levels, which I've had checked at my lfs too, even the sps corals are showing good polyp extension, colouration and are starting to grow. I only want to get the nitrates down to a sensible level, maybe 5ish, and be able to maintain that.

Would you suggest going back to week 1 on the chart and following the 250 gallon column and then add 1ml per week thereafter until the levels begin to drop?

Thanks, Di

 

[Squamosa]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I've got a mixed reef with some Sps, Lps and softies along with a mixed bag of fish.

I don't really want to run a full on ulns to be honest. Despite the high nitrate levels, which I've had checked at my lfs too, even the sps corals are showing good polyp extension, colouration and are starting to grow. I only want to get the nitrates down to a sensible level, maybe 5ish, and be able to maintain that.

Would you suggest going back to week 1 on the chart and following the 250 gallon column and then add 1ml per week thereafter until the levels begin to drop?

Thanks, Di

You didn't mention you had started already!

What do you currently dose/day or what week are you on?

Are your NO3 levels at the values you mentioned in the 1st post?

 

[gatekeeperdi]

You didn't mention you had started already!

What do you currently dose/day or what week are you on?

Are your NO3 levels at the values you mentioned in the 1st post?

Thanks for your reply. In my original post I said:

"I have recently started dosing vodka as a carbon source to try to reduce my nitrates. They are 25-50 on a salifert nitrate kit. I was running a Deltec nitrate reactor but I was needing to clean out the mulm every 2 weeks so the water going through the reactor was never getting high enough to reduce the tank nitrate.

I am on week 2 of the dosing cycle using the chart on the notes from the trenches article."

I started dosing 0.1ml vodka per 100 litres tank volume for days 1-3 (0.7 ml per day, which I split into 2 doses).

I increased the dose of vodka to 1.4 ml per day on days 4-7.

I am currently dosing 1.9ml per day, split into 2 doses. There has been no signs of reduction in nitrate levels so far.

Thanks Di

 

[Squamosa]

I am on week 3 of the dosing cycle using the chart on the notes from the trenches article."

Sorry, my bad, I should read properly
Since you are already dosing, I would switch to the 250g column and start at week 3 (3ml/day which you can split into a morning and evening dose).

However, if you don't see any reduction in NO3 after week 4, I would add on an extra 1ml to the weekly dose.

 

[gatekeeperdi]

Sorry, my bad, I should read properly
Since you are already dosing, I would switch to the 250g column and start at week 3 (3ml/day which you can split into a morning and evening dose).

However, if you don't see any reduction in NO3 after week 4, I would add on an extra 1ml to the weekly dose.

Thanks. That makes sense. I'll give it a go and see how it responds.

 

[Girish23]

Its work for me week a ago my no3 on 80 ppm i start dosin from 1ml first 3 days then i starting from day 4 is vodka 1.5 ml and my no 3 close to undetectable what should i do next? Should i drop the dose half after day 7 of this week ?

 

[Scooter.B]

I'm struggling too, not sure how I want to go about this.
Over the past 3 weeks my Nitrates had risen to 20ppm.
Nitrites are at ZERO, always been at zero.
Phosphates started at ZERO, climb to .25, down to .01, and now currently up to .05. Not sure if it equates to anything but my KH is at 7° dkh.
With all that said. I was thinking either dosing with Red Sea NO3O4-X NITRATE & PHOSPHATE REDUCER, or using good ole Vodka, plus it's cheaper.
Any suggestions and guidance?
I have a water volume of about 125 gals.
Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm struggling too, not sure how I want to go about this.
Over the past 3 weeks my Nitrates had risen to 20ppm.
Nitrites are at ZERO, always been at zero.
Phosphates started at ZERO, climb to .25, down to .01, and now currently up to .05. Not sure if it equates to anything but my KH is at 7° dkh.
With all that said. I was thinking either dosing with Red Sea NO3O4-X NITRATE & PHOSPHATE REDUCER, or using good ole Vodka, plus it's cheaper.
Any suggestions and guidance?
I have a water volume of about 125 gals.
Thanks

20 ppm is not a big problem, so don't overdo whatever approach you take.

I'd personally use vinegar, but both vodka and NOPOX also can work fine.

 

[Scooter.B]

Randy, not familiar with using vinegar. Any good recommended and trust worthy articles using vinegar.
I just want to start something small so that it can be maintained. More of a maintenance and preventative thing. I would be very small dosing which ever way I go.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bacteria prefer ammonia above nitrate for cellsynthesis. They will use ammonia first before starting to use nitrate. When nitrate is assimilated this means that most ammonia in the water column is removed at that moment. After the time needed to reach the desired nitrate level the system will produce a lot more free ammonia which must be assimilated. Why?
The doses are based on the amount nitrate present without knowing how much ammonia is produced. After a period of dosing the carrying capacity will shift from nitrification to assimilation, from autothropic ammonia reduction to heterothropic ammonia reduction. This means more and more ammonia must be assimilated and less nitrate is produced. As the nitrate level is an indicator of nitrate still present and not of the nitrate produced it is possible that during the time of dosing the carrying capacity has shifted mainly to assimilation and nitrification is mainly suppressed by the same heterothropic growth which means the nitrification capacity has become very limited.
When the nitrate becomes undetectable the dose is reduced by half. Besides the fact that the presence of nitrate is very important in a closed system it may not be a good idea to reduce the dose by half. As the nitrate is not detectable any more thus not mean that less ammonia is produced daily. As the C:N ratio is not maintained on which the carrying capacity is based not all free ammonia will be removed and total ammonia will build up as it will take several days to weeks before the nitrification capacity is reinstalled. The ammonia level is best monitored when the doses are reduced.
Why an undetectable nitrate content is aimed? Insufficient availability of nitrate can cause a lot of problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, not familiar with using vinegar. Any good recommended and trust worthy articles using vinegar.
I just want to start something small so that it can be maintained. More of a maintenance and preventative thing. I would be very small dosing which ever way I go.

I used vinegar as part of a multi-prong nutrient control scheme (macroalgae, GFO, skimming, GAC, 1% daily water changes).

Here's an article:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bacteria prefer ammonia above nitrate for cellsynthesis. They will use ammonia first before starting to use nitrate. When nitrate is assimilated this means that most ammonia in the water column is removed at that moment. After the time needed to reach the desired nitrate level the system will produce a lot more free ammonia which must be assimilated. Why?
.

While I agree with the statement that undetectable nitrate is not the best goal, I've never seen any evidence that ammonia rises or is any concern as a consequence of vinegar or vodka dosing.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I used vinegar as part of a multi-prong nutrient control scheme (macroalgae, GFO, skimming, GAC, 1% daily water changes).

Here's an article:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

How does vinegar promotes ANAMMOX?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The presented dosing schedule does not take in account the C:N ratio. I try to find out on what parameters it is based . While following the schedule not only daily produced ammonia and nitrate is assimilated but also stored nitrate. The C:N ratio will increase as the dosing does not follow the total available nitrogen. During decrease of the total nitrogen the carbon doses are even increased creating an unknown C:N ratio.
Which is the parameter followed or monitored during the dosing schedule to prevent the C:N ratio to becomes to high which may reduces the nitrification capacity drastically?

As it may take weeks to re-install the previous installed nitrification capacity the systems carrying capacity is supported mainly by the daily carbon doses as a high C:N ratio is maintained. When for some reason the dosing is interrupted or stopped sufficient carrying capacity may not be available.