Warm White, Neutral White, and Cool White? Help clear the haze!

[jedimasterben]

I never mentioned a single thing about growth, there really aren't many lights that could not grow coral just as well as others given the same intensity and spread. All of those corals contain pigments that express under strong blue light.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Like these?
All of these have been grown from frags under 100% led for the past 4 years and they are all just basic frags not some high end pieces.









And btw it's not that I disagree with what your saying, both you and bill know way more about LEDs than I. I'm just saying that in my experience RB and CW will grow sps just fine, I have far more trouble and worry more about maintaining my alk than what combination of LEDs to use. I've lost far more corals to water quality issues and equipment failures over the years than my choice of lighting

I totally agree.

I wish maintaining optimal water chemistry over numerous years was as easy as building a light fixture.

Bill

 

[johnanddawn]

I never mentioned a single thing about growth, there really aren't many lights that could not grow coral just as well as others given the same intensity and spread. All of those corals contain pigments that express under strong blue light.

Hmmm now I'm curious, I purposely choose a red, blue, green, and purple sps to show you - I don't have any orange or yellow ones - way too expensive for me

I wish I could afford an orange delight or wolverine or whatever those high end yellow or orangish acros are called so I could test it
But basically your contention is that I wouldn't have luck with them anyway because I lack lime and other warmer colors in my spectrum?

Now the conversation is getting interesting...

 

[eagle]

I have to agree with Bill about the yellow. Just my personal preference. The Iwasaki would grow some coral too but man were they ugly lol. To me anyway. I've had coral grow under all different colors and kinds of light. Before we even had reef lights or knew much about it lol. I think it's been documented enough what spectrums are needed. Dana Riddle has talked enough now about red not being the best spectrum for corals. I've read countless threads about red and algae. But it seems to come down to a persons preference and that's the great thing about DIY. Run what you think looks best. Run what you think works best for your corals. I just read several threads today where people tried warm white and went back to cool white because they weren't what they liked. That's what's great about building your own. And many will rant about what's "best" for the corals. I think we have the blue spectrum covered nowdays with RB, UV, and Blue. If you like yellow and red then run some warm whites. You can get yellow out of cheap cool whites minus the lumens lol. If you don't like them then pop in some quality binned cool whites. Anyone can build one of these lights. Very easy. My wife has been helping me put mine together and she's not into electronics at all but understands what we are doing pretty well. It's really not rocket science. If you have any questions there are tons of people on here like Bill and Ben that help people out. Keeping SPS far exceeds the skills required to wire these up lol. I'd just say only get led's from people that give you the bin numbers. Look at the datasheets for the led's at different places and see who has the best bin! I've seen too many times where in the advertisement on the site says it's the top bin blah blah then you look at the datasheet and the bin code and it's not as good as the bin another seller has for the same price. Do your homework on everything and it'll be easy.

 

[hart24601]

The point is for color. Non-fluorescent colors need a specific amount of radiance in specific spectra to stick around and not fade into something else. Cool white LEDs, even 'binned' chips that have even more blue, are just anemic when it comes to color in comparison to warmer LEDs. If you've only got fluorescent corals, that's one thing, but there are tons of SPS that do not fluoresce and require larger amounts of amber and red to show their 'true' color.

This has always made a great deal of sense to me. I think we are way past "growing coral" in terms of what is needed, that was settled. Having a good base for all colors including non fluorescent is the way to go IMO.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

This has always made a great deal of sense to me. I think we are way past "growing coral" in terms of what is needed, that was settled. Having a good base for all colors including non fluorescent is the way to go IMO.

A good base for colours is the way to go but how much yellow and green do you want in your whites?

I prefer to exclude a bit of them and then if necessary add them later. IMHO a cooler cool white has enough for my taste as I'm not a fan of the Iwasaki 6.5K MH look.

Back in the Day we did use the Iwasaki 6.5K but needed a ton of 110 watt 420nm VHOs to cover up the yellow.

At best, High Noon had a 10K look. I've even tried blue glass under the 6.5K MH to block the yellow. Results were less than desired but it was posted back then that this would work.

Now we have lots of affordable MHs that grow.

With LEDs you can choose the optimal spectrum with less heat, but its all taste.

Bill

 

[eagle]

I agree. I remember those days. I have looked at a lot of reviews of different led's and read through most all the datasheets. For instance this pic is the radion G3 Pro with just cool whites on. Who knows what Bin as that's the problem with buying fixtures. They say "Top Bin" LED's but who knows what they are.

Even the guy in the review says he don't know why they call them cool white. I personally believe there is enough green/yellow in there for plenty of base. I wouldn't want that much so I opted for Crisper white XT-E (8000K) over the 6000K XP-G2 and I had Steve's make me up some 6500K Luxeon M which they decided to carry now lol. I would rather start there as a base and use PC-Amber, Red, Blue, Cyan, maybe some lime to enhance other colors and brightness and RB/UV for pop. Then I can run less RB. Similar to the pucks at RLL. Should be able to get more punch that way instead of running your warm whites at low levels to balance the blue/white or needing twice as many blues to balance it out. Or you could have a string of cool and a string of warm and just adjust the warm for the filler colors. I doubt it would take much.

 

[James Robert]

Hey Light Masters.LOL. I have been doing some long hrs of research on Warm Whites. Many who have leds can grow sps coral.What i have found,the ones who have a percentage of warm whites in the mix,not only can they grow acros, but the color is great as well.I not all that smart when it comes to lighting,Just something that i have noticed. Thats what got me to your thread.I am still researching.But i am convinced that there is a connection why they have good success.

 

[jedimasterben]

A very, uh, well it's really dang long thread discussing LED aesthetics from a few years ago (that most still don't understand today): LED Aesthetics: What do you really think of your color? - Lighting Forum - Nano-Reef.com Forums

 

[James Robert]

Thanks,I might be a little behind.I guess me just getting into acros has got me going.My AI hrdras do ok with most sps,just knew the acros needed more attention to get the proper colors.

 

[dacianb]

My 5cent advice.... as cold possible,but with top CRI selection of Leds. Normally lower the kelvin higher the CRI,but still you can go to 4-5000 K with great color rendering. More than color itself i would focus on color rendering

 

[James Robert]

Thanks,What i need,is to learn the proper mix.Sure we have so many saying so much percent of this color or that.What i need is to learn about spectrum and natural sunlight.Im having problems with how much red ,green and cool white.Is there a way to mix them to get a warmer k.

 

[jedimasterben]

No cool white, no red, no green. A white LED with the proper CRI will have balanced green and red so that dedicated LEDs are unnecessary (and 530nm green LEDs have never been necessary, but I digress). A 2:4:1 ratio of a high-CRI white in the 4000K range, royal blue, and blue is where I always recommend to start. Add in some violet, cyan, and lime (not green, very particularly lime), and you're done.

 

[James Robert]

Keep in mind,My leds are the AI Hydra. They only have the Blue, Royal blue,Violet,Red,Green,UV,and Cool white 70 cri.I wanted awarm white in there.I still a little lost here.What dose the cri stand for.

 

[jedimasterben]

CRI is color rendering index. It is not a perfect system for measuring the color performance of LEDs, but it's good enough. I doubt that the cool white LEDs used in the Hydra are even 70CRI minimum.

 

[dacianb]

CRI comes from Color Rendering Index. Full bright sun have a CRI of 100, all artificial light sources comes under 100, of course. You can have same kelvin light output but with different CRI. As low this value is, as duller the colors will show. High CRI white LEDs dont need the "help" of different other colored LEDs, but also can improve it. Also, as cold a white led is, as low the CRI goes, but also cheap leds are low index even on warmer side.

CRI is defined by CIE13.3-1995 standard and measure the percentage of following components.

TCS1 [7.5 R 6/4; Light Greyish Red]
TCS2 [5 Y 6/4; Dark Greyish Yellow]
TCS3 [5 GY 6/8; Strong Yellow Green]
TCS4 [2.5 G 6/6; Moderate Yellowish Green]
TCS5 [10 BG 6/4; Light Bluish Green]
TCS6 [5 PB 6/8; Light Blue]
TCS7 [2.5 P 6/8; Light Violet]
TCS8 [10 P 6/8; Light Reddish Purple]
TCS9 [4.5 R 4/13; Strong Red]
TCS10 [5 Y 8/10; Strong Yellow]
TCS11 [4.5 G 5/8; Strong Green]
TCS12 [3 PB 3/11; Strong Blue]
TCS13 [5 YR 8/4; Light Yellowish Pink (Human Complexion)]
TCS14 [5 GY 4/4; Moderate Olive Green (Leaf Green)]
TCS15 [1 YR 6/4; Asian Skin]

This CRI value is not important for your tank, but only for you (visual aspect of it).
I am working also on a DIY led light for the moment (there is thread on this forum with my build) and I use 6 channels with different leds on each one. Then I can tune the colors until I will be happy with the outcome.

 

[James Robert]

Thanks guys,I've got 5 new acros, They are doing ok at the moment. I am adding some t5 on the front and back of hydras.The one in the back is going to be a midday bulb 6000 k.
The one in the front will be a blue plus.Im trying to insure the are getting the right amout of light.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

CRI has very little to do with photosynthesis here is a quote and link "The color rendering index (CRI), sometimes called color rendition index, is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reveal the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source. Light sources with a high CRI are desirable in color-critical applications such as photography and cinematography.^[1] It is defined by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE, in French) as follows:^[2]

CRI may help in finding the look you prefer but I would not use it to determine the growth properties of a LED Fixture.

Adding T5 to th Hydras will help as they dont have the PAR of a 400 watt MH. SPS do better under a 400 watt MH equivalent. What they dont use for photosynthesis triggers different pigments that are desirable to reflect the extra light.

Bill

 

[jedimasterben]

This has nothing to do with growth - we can already achieve PAR numbers above and beyond any other type of high-intensity lighting (of course with careful planning for spread). At this point the focus has left 'maximum growth potential' and is pointing towards color. Cool white arrays do not compare to those based on high-CRI whites.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

This has nothing to do with growth - we can already achieve PAR numbers above and beyond any other type of high-intensity lighting (of course with careful planning for spread). At this point the focus has left 'maximum growth potential' and is pointing towards color. Cool white arrays do not compare to those based on high-CRI whites.

High PAR numbers are good. High PAR numbers with high efficiency is better. I've said this before, Hi-CRI Whites tend to need a lot of extra LEDs to achieve the looks most want.

Some have posted that having a high CRI is better. A high CRI is important to consider when lighting an Art Museum. This will offer a more natural rendition of the colours compared to natural sunlight, not necessarily offer better looks.

Most of us prefer a 10-20K Look the chart below shows a decrease in the spectrums offered by Hi-CRI Whites as the Kelvin increases.

Bill