Warm White, Neutral White, and Cool White? Help clear the haze!

[jedimasterben]

High PAR numbers are good. High PAR numbers with high efficiency is better. I've said this before, Hi-CRI Whites tend to need a lot of extra LEDs to achieve the looks most want.

Some have posted that having a high CRI is better. A high CRI is important to consider when lighting an Art Museum. This will offer a more natural rendition of the colours compared to natural sunlight, not necessarily offer better looks.

Most of us prefer a 10-20K Look the chart below shows a decrease in the spectrums offered by Hi-CRI Whites as the Kelvin increases.

Bill

High PAR is NOT always good. Once you reach a coral's photosaturation point, any further light is wasted, and once you reach the inhibition point, total photosynthetic activity (aka growth) decreases as the coral desperately tries to protect itself. More light does not mean more color, only for pigments that require specific intensities of specific spectra to express (which to be perfectly honest aren't many in number).

High CRI LEDs eliminate half a dozen others from arrays. Cool white needs violet, royal blue, blue, cyan, lime, amber, red-orange, red, and deep red. High-CRI whites need violet, royal blue, blue, cyan, lime. Less LEDs, less cost, less disco.

If you really think that CRI is not important over a reef tank, then why do your arrays not use RGB LEDs instead of cool white? You can make the light look identical to the eye and keep the color temperature higher.

Also, what in the world is that picture supposed to represent? Kelvin color temperature and spectrum don't really have anything to do with each other, as you can 'make' any color temperature with just a few key wavelengths and nothing in between.

 

[James Robert]

Well,I do appreciate you guys trying to help.And you have.If nobody posted ,i would have nothing to go on?Again, thanks,all is welcome.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

High PAR not good??? Then why do the successful mature SPS Tanks almost always have 400 watt MH or equivalent intensity LEDs? Light over the point of photo saturation is common in natural shallow reefs and the coral does not desperately produce pigments they naturally produce them much like we tan. Once a colony matures not a base ball size but a Chicago Softball size the extra light is reflected in the tank and feeds the portions that are shaded. I prefer not to treat my corals like a Prisoner in a North Korean gulag only feeding it the minimum to stay alive but to feed it the same amount of light naturally found on the reef which is at least a 400 watt MH equivalent in PAR.

I still have not seen need for Lime or Yellow LEDs as a mix of Cool White and Warm White covers these wavelengths. The Disco effect is caused by poor LED placement or in the case of Most Inexpensive Imports adding two Reds randomly without consideration of blending.

On our Latest Fixture we do use RGB clusters. This allows for millions of variations in looks without sacrificing growth.

The Chart simply represents that for a cooler 10-20K look we need less of the High CRI White as a base.

Bill

 

[James Robert]

Got a important question about the warm white.I dont have any in my hydras.Do i need them .

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Got a important question about the warm white.I dont have any in my hydras.Do i need them .

Red is the first spectrum blocked by the ocean and the Warms do have a bit of Red and Orange in them.

Zoas and other very shallow corals need a little. There is a little in the Cool White but not much. How much is of for debate as too much Red or Warm White may promote nuisance algae and in some studies inhibits SPS growth.

Adding the T5s should provide enough with the right bulb.

Bill

 

[James Robert]

For one,was adding a midday bulb, 6000k, I know its considered cool.But i didn't or could nt find a 36" 3000k t5 bulb. Will adding a little red from my hydra help make it warm.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

For one,was adding a midday bulb, 6000k, I know its considered cool.But i didn't or could nt find a 36" 3000k t5 bulb. Will adding a little red from my hydra help make it warm.

I'm not sure of the spectrum of the Hydras Red 630 or 660nm but with a Fiji Purple T5 you should have the warm side more than covered.

Bill

 

[jedimasterben]

High PAR not good??? Then why do the successful mature SPS Tanks almost always have 400 watt MH or equivalent intensity LEDs? Light over the point of photo saturation is common in natural shallow reefs and the coral does not desperately produce pigments they naturally produce them much like we tan. Once a colony matures not a base ball size but a Chicago Softball size the extra light is reflected in the tank and feeds the portions that are shaded. I prefer not to treat my corals like a Prisoner in a North Korean gulag only feeding it the minimum to stay alive but to feed it the same amount of light naturally found on the reef which is at least a 400 watt MH equivalent in PAR.

I still have not seen need for Lime or Yellow LEDs as a mix of Cool White and Warm White covers these wavelengths. The Disco effect is caused by poor LED placement or in the case of Most Inexpensive Imports adding two Reds randomly without consideration of blending.

On our Latest Fixture we do use RGB clusters. This allows for millions of variations in looks without sacrificing growth.

The Chart simply represents that for a cooler 10-20K look we need less of the High CRI White as a base.

Bill

If you look over Dana Riddle's work, you'd see that excess of ~250-450 PAR for even acropora is above their inhibition limit and they begin to use their xanthophyll cycle to try and prevent damage to their photosystems. Just because corals grow well in the ocean doesn't mean the conditions are necessarily optimum. Take the hybrid acropora living in Miami - the waters there are polluted, stupidly hot, and in incredibly murky water, yet they still grow like weeds. Now imagine if they were in a 'better' environment :O

400w halides are surprisingly uncommon. The most common are 150w by a landslide, with 250w trailing behind them. For every successful reef lit by 400w halides I see several just as filled with 250w bulbs. Well, not filled with 250w bulbs, but using 250w bulbs

 

[ReefLEDLights]

If you look over Dana Riddle's work, you'd see that excess of ~250-450 PAR for even acropora is above their inhibition limit and they begin to use their xanthophyll cycle to try and prevent damage to their photosystems. Just because corals grow well in the ocean doesn't mean the conditions are necessarily optimum. Take the hybrid acropora living in Miami - the waters there are polluted, stupidly hot, and in incredibly murky water, yet they still grow like weeds. Now imagine if they were in a 'better' environment :O

400w halides are surprisingly uncommon. The most common are 150w by a landslide, with 250w trailing behind them. For every successful reef lit by 400w halides I see several just as filled with 250w bulbs. Well, not filled with 250w bulbs, but using 250w bulbs

I'm a big fan of Dana Riddles work.

I like to see at least 200 PAR at the bottom of my tank.

There is also work on the benefits of the pigments produced by corals when exposed to levels above photo inhibition.

As far as 400 watt MHs being surprisingly uncommon I must ask if you were reefkeeping before PFO introduced their fixture back in the day???(Yes we did walk to school barefoot in the snow up hill both ways back then) If so most 250 watt MH Fixtures also have two to four rows of T5 or yes VHO (400 watt MH Equivelant)... 250 watt MHs were a compromise to reduce heat inside a hood. 150 watt MH were for nano tanks. Champion Lighting and Supply still carry a serious line of 400 watt MHs and ballasts. The only thing that is becoming uncommon is 110 watt VHOs and soon T5s for their toxic properties when broken.

If your growing Corals or "Tomatoes" in your basement 400 watt MH are still popular.

Trying not to be argumentative, we're just trying to help. One question we receive often at our briefs is "how high should I set my Radion or IA?"...Our answer is all the way as this barely hits our desired PAR levels on the bottom of a 30" Deep Tank.

Sanjay's work with MHs has been instrumental in the approach we take to LED Lighting. Note that the second link states that a 175 watt MH is 1/10 the surface light of the natural reef. Yes these links do not answer the question how much PAR is best but with a little more in depth research one can have a more informed opinion.

Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Feature
Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Feature


Bill

 

[Tony73]

Interesting thread, I follow

 

[jedimasterben]

From Dana Riddle

Feature Article: How to Make Corals Colorful, Part One: New Information, With Particular Attention to Blue-Green Fluorescent Pigments ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Feature Article: Too Much Light! ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Feature Article: How Much Light?! Analyses of Selected Shallow Water Invertebrates' Light Requirements ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Feature Article: A Different Look at Lighting: Effects of Prolonged Photoperiod, Spectral Quality, and Light Dosage ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Feature Article: Light Data from a Hawaiian Tidepool ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Feature Article: Imitating Natural Light Quality, Intensity, and Dosage in a Reef Aquarium - Do We Really Want To? ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Reefs Magazine - Light Intensity Requirements of Shallow Tidepool Coral

Reefs Magazine - Light Intensity Requirements of Tidepool Coral: Part II - Porites lobata

 

[GHill762]

:fencing:

this thread keeps getting more interesting :nerd:

 

[jonjboz]

Hello everyone, I'm Italian and it is the first time I write in this forum (sorry for my english). I am a student of led light for reef aquariums for over six years, and I can say from my experience that I completely agree with what he says jedimasterben.
The cold light barrier in the tanks is recommended only for those tanks SPS, which do not have red pigmentation, but these tanks are not the highest number, generally the reef tanks also contain LPS corals that need light cyan (500nm) and yellow / orange (580-620nm) this to stimulate some of the carotenoids chromoproteins.
I think that the use of LED neutral white 4000 / 5000K with high CRI (85 min) is the ideal solution to avoid having to use many types of LEDs of different colors.
With the use of this type of white LED is achieved especially a good distribution of all the frequencies that are used to complete the spectrum of our lamps

 

[heathd.hd]

I say we put this to a challenge. Maybe build a few lights and put them over identical frags in one stable system?

 

[James Robert]

In many cases, The led fixtures don't have 4000/5000.They have cool white (6000 and up).Is that where the use of the other colors come into play,such as red ,green or violet?

 

[Nano sapiens]

In many cases, The led fixtures don't have 4000/5000.They have cool white (6000 and up).Is that where the use of the other colors come into play,such as red ,green or violet?

Cool whites don't have much in the way of 'warmer' colors, so NW and WW can be used to fill in many of those spectra. Violet would be considered a cooler color and many commercial arrays didn't have much, if any, of this spectra in the past and many of the ones that have them now often don't have enough as they are costly (although that cost is coming down).

One can use dedicated red, green, yellow, etc. emitters, but you can end up with less-than-optimal color blending unless they are quite close together. You'll also be using more emitters, obviously, in the array to cover these spectra than if you had NW and/or WW.

 

[jonjboz]

Cool whites don't have much in the way of 'warmer' colors, so NW and WW can be used to fill in many of those spectra. Violet would be considered a cooler color and many commercial arrays didn't have much, if any, of this spectra in the past and many of the ones that have them now often don't have enough as they are costly (although that cost is coming down).

One can use dedicated red, green, yellow, etc. emitters, but you can end up with less-than-optimal color blending unless they are quite close together. You'll also be using more emitters, obviously, in the array to cover these spectra than if you had NW and/or WW.

Exactly Nano sapiens, anyway known that you think a lot with human eyes and little with the real needs of the coral.
When I think of a lamp for a reef aquarium, I always start by imagining what is the correct light for corals and then try to adjust it for our eyes.
In my experience you have to start from the individual frequencies by now well known, and enter a number of LED always good enough to cover the surface of the tank. For this reason I consider most of the commercial lamps not very good. Most often they have some types of LEDs in a ridiculous amount. An example: when I see lights that mount 5 led purple to cover an area of approximately 5 ft2 I am horrified !!!! To cover an area of 5 ft2 it takes at least twice that number

 

[Tony73]

Exactly Nano sapiens, anyway known that you think a lot with human eyes and little with the real needs of the coral.
When I think of a lamp for a reef aquarium, I always start by imagining what is the correct light for corals and then try to adjust it for our eyes.
In my experience you have to start from the individual frequencies by now well known, and enter a number of LED always good enough to cover the surface of the tank. For this reason I consider most of the commercial lamps not very good. Most often they have some types of LEDs in a ridiculous amount. An example: when I see lights that mount 5 led purple to cover an area of approximately 5 ft2 I am horrified !!!! To cover an area of 5 ft2 it takes at least twice that number

Totally agree with you!

 

[James Robert]

Can we touch on the what led colors that will help the warm side if we don't have ww.For example.Red,green.I have seen some who had there reds and greens cranked up 60 to 70%.Without having ww.For example The tank of the month on RC.

 

[jedimasterben]

An example: when I see lights that mount 5 led purple to cover an area of approximately 5 ft2 I am horrified !!!! To cover an area of 5 ft2 it takes at least twice that number

It actually would take significantly more than that to have any effect, otherwise their addition is nearly pointless. 6-8x per 24x24 area is the minimum.