What is the single water parameter a torch cant stand?

[Albertoinbox]

Anyway, I would just like to get this thing sorted out. It just baffles me that after generations of people in the hobby for decades how come things haven't been sorted out yet? I mean, we can figure out blackholes and stuff but cant keep fish in the water?

I understand that probably 60% of the profit of this industry comes from people making mistakes and being willing to pay for it (how long does a torch last well kept? Forever? If all torches that were ever sold lasted forever, how many torches would there still be being sold? Products cant be made to last forever otherwise factories would shut down. Things have to brake down for good so the manufacturer remains relevant), which is fine, because the intrinsic complex care versus success provides a high level of drama that excites us as humans and drives us into this wonderful hobby. In other words, If it was all plug and play it would loose its value and therefore interest and our lives would be less colorful and interesting.

So its ok I guess, but remember that animals are being sacrificed and I'm just too old to spend my time dwelling with stuff that could have been solved a long time ago that would enable me to reach higher levels of success in a shorter amount of time and money, making me happier, but are kept off the records so the business can thrive. I'd like facts now, so I could enjoy my tank and move along. That's it really, I'm not interested in being a smart butt, just wish I could enjoy more and work and pay just what's fair, but money is always getting in the way. Its kind of like the relationship between my BTA, my anemone crab and my clowns.

 

[Albertoinbox]

He's got a cube with 5 wavemakers in it and RFGs, lol. I mean, you can fight uphill battles all day, but it's a lot easier to make statements that get you 90% there, 90% of the time, than try to account for that last 10% of obscurity. I don't doubt that you can fight against the phenomena with a few factors at play: A larger cube that can take many wave pumps, the right rockscape, etc, etc. And it's not "JUST" the fact it's a cube, it's the flow patterns that often develop in a cube. It's not to say you couldn't get these bad flow patterns in other shaped tanks, however, I've seen this too many times now in cubes, which is why I made a general statement, however, it IS a generalized statement, so take it for what it is.

I actually didn't move them to a larger tank, rather, a smaller tank that's a rectangle. My 29g grows torches like mad. I've one that went from 5 heads to over 60 with a good 5-6" of skeletal growth. I've also had plenty of heads die from simply being shaded out from other heads, things like that, I generally think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to keep them happy. I have some theories a bit less proven, like I've noticed smaller single-head frags have a high chance of not surviving, and I suspect this is because larger colonies sort of "share the slime" with each other between heads, for lack of better technical terms. I can't really prove this.

Truthfully, there's only so much "scientific method" you're going to get out of a hobby full of subjective opinions, many of these things are too difficult to eliminate variables for. BRS did a video about how flow effects SPS growth and I actually called out this same thing, because they did the test in a bunch of cube tanks. I suspect they really didn't vary flow angle/direction, but rather, just the intensity/velocity of the flow. There's a lot more factors than just "how much" flow, but rather, what angle, constant angle, etc. I'll see if i can post a recent picture of my tank for you though.

I understand. It makes sense.

When I move to a bigger tank I will make sure it is as big as I can handle because I believe it generates so much many more variants in flow, light, nutrients and kinds of micro niches. This provides a larger array of options for life to chose from and favors a more stable and rich system. I will also for sure research more on the shape of the tank as well as the depth to consider a flow plan before hand. At least do the best I can.

I'm sure the chances of success for a larger variety and care type of corals in a larger (appropriate) system should be greater in general.

Please show me a shot of your tank if you can.

 

[Xero]

I understand. It makes sense.

When I move to a bigger tank I will make sure it is as big as I can handle because I believe it generates so much many more variants in flow, light, nutrients and kinds of micro niches. This provides a larger array of options for life to chose from and favors a more stable and rich system. I will also for sure research more on the shape of the tank as well as the depth to consider a flow plan before hand. At least do the best I can.

I'm sure the chances of success for a larger variety and care type of corals in a larger (appropriate) system should be greater in general.

Please show me a shot of your tank if you can.

if a picture says 1000 words...me rambling in a video says even more??? Haha. Did a video

 

[madlos123]

My tank with a torch forest and euphyllia.
when i first started I had a brown/purple torch. over time i just started loosing head by head every week or 2 until its all gone. Once I got my green torch, i just stuck with it. now 5 years later I got a whole forest of them. What I noticed is my torch will get mad when true 0 phosphates especially after using gfo, so i stopped using gfo. Now i dose nitrates and phosphates. once settled they are hardy as heck. I had them at 15 dkh, true zero phosphates, 1.029 salinity and still alive, maybe angry but not dead lol.
buy a healthy one locally due to minimal shipping stress and dip them before adding.

 

[GILLty Guppy]

I agree, flow is key. I am still a newbie, water prams are not perfect yet. Bought a torch with 3 heads for $10 at LFS as it was not looking good and seemed on it's deathbed. For me this was a perfect specimen to try my hand at a euphillia. To my surprise it opened up and was doing great in my tank for over a month. Unfortunately the power head closest to it desuctioned- I woke to direct flow on it and no heads in sight. Searched the tank but they were nowhere to be found. I believe that prior to that it did so well because it was under just the right amount of flow.

 

[S.Pepper]

I tried keeping torch coral, I bought two, one died in two days and the other has been struggling for months but I dont think it will make it. I'm surely doing something wrong, but what?

I have all sorts of coral thriving in my tank and torches are the ONLY corals that die (sure, now and then a new difficult care frag won't aclimate to my tank just because and dies).

I understand from what I read that it isn't just me (seems to be a thing really) and people think it must have to do with something in the water. In fact, the first thing anyone asks about is water parameters, which make sense, but how-come torches are the only ones that have a problem with the water when everyone else is doing fine?

They must have a singular care. So, my question is what is this single thing (parameter) that only torches are highly sensible to?

I would love to keep a torch but I cant change the water everyday, there must be an explication.

Thanks for reading, if you can shed some light please do.

That's ironic. I have 2 branch hammers and one torch and those are the 3 corals that are doing the best--they are going crazy with growth; and they all have since putting them in my system--about 4-5 months ago. I've had my system running for about 7 months. My 3 ricordea are doing nicely and my paly/zoas are just existing. My parameters are well within the margin. I use Tropic Marin Pro and dose TM All-for-reef.

I new to the hobby, so i really don't know what i am doing; but i do make a concerted effort with the work i put in my system. GL

 

[GILLty Guppy]

if a picture says 1000 words...me rambling in a video says even more??? Haha. Did a video

Thanks for the video, great demo of perfect flow and all of your corals look amazing! Thanks so much for sharing !!

 

[Xero]

Anyway, I would just like to get this thing sorted out. It just baffles me that after generations of people in the hobby for decades how come things haven't been sorted out yet? I mean, we can figure out blackholes and stuff but cant keep fish in the water?

I understand that probably 60% of the profit of this industry comes from people making mistakes and being willing to pay for it (how long does a torch last well kept? Forever? If all torches that were ever sold lasted forever, how many torches would there still be being sold? Products cant be made to last forever otherwise factories would shut down. Things have to brake down for good so the manufacturer remains relevant), which is fine, because the intrinsic complex care versus success provides a high level of drama that excites us as humans and drives us into this wonderful hobby. In other words, If it was all plug and play it would loose its value and therefore interest and our lives would be less colorful and interesting.

So its ok I guess, but remember that animals are being sacrificed and I'm just too old to spend my time dwelling with stuff that could have been solved a long time ago that would enable me to reach higher levels of success in a shorter amount of time and money, making me happier, but are kept off the records so the business can thrive. I'd like facts now, so I could enjoy my tank and move along. That's it really, I'm not interested in being a smart butt, just wish I could enjoy more and work and pay just what's fair, but money is always getting in the way. Its kind of like the relationship between my BTA, my anemone crab and my clowns.

Truthfully, I think many people have figured out a lot more than they're willing to let on, but just won't talk about it. I don't think it's all strictly because of the money, some of it definitely is for sure, but there's also a lot of opinionated people in the hobby, and sometimes I'd rather not just be labeled "another one of them." I don't post here that often for this very reason unless it's a subject I feel like I've got a lot of experience with.

One of the first things my LFS owner said to me when I was starting out was, "ask 10 people, get 10 answers." If I do speak up about something, I like to come with more than just opinion, even if it's just a tank photo, a video, you name it. I am very much for disseminating information, "information wants to be free", but sometimes it's hard to tell the truths from the background noise, and it's hard to know when to speak and when to keep quiet.

On the flip side, I've unintentionally stumbled upon a few trade secrets (not related to torches), and I won't even talk about them online anymore unless the person also seems equally "in the know" or is a friend, just because, ultimately people just start arguing, demanding proof, etc, and it's just more than I want to deal with. When I can make the time-lapse video demonstrating those tricks, then I'll have less an issue talking about them!

 

[Albertoinbox]

if a picture says 1000 words...me rambling in a video says even more??? Haha. Did a video

Oh my goodness, the torch master!

They're so many, so big, all in the same tank like that. They're all gorgeous. Those clowns are happy. Thanks for the video, it sure says a lot. Your explanation is great. Good job.

To me it goes a long way to show really that torches in fact aren't very picky besides the obvious correct light, water and flow combination, but it seems quite a small range of deviation within the right combination.

There is certainly a very peculiar "combination" going on in that tank that my tank couldn't replicate for sure. Maybe larger tanks could.

I'm not going to mention nutrition which is pretty standard. Water is also something you can measure. Light is also pretty much figured out with Radions. But flow is one thing that isn't standard, it depends on the aquarist to determine the right size, shape and flow of the tank I guess.

Have you ever changed anything (light, water, flow) in these three years in this tank and noticed a change in the torches?

 

[Albertoinbox]

Truthfully, I think many people have figured out a lot more than they're willing to let on, but just won't talk about it. I don't think it's all strictly because of the money, some of it definitely is for sure, but there's also a lot of opinionated people in the hobby, and sometimes I'd rather not just be labeled "another one of them." I don't post here that often for this very reason unless it's a subject I feel like I've got a lot of experience with.

One of the first things my LFS owner said to me when I was starting out was, "ask 10 people, get 10 answers." If I do speak up about something, I like to come with more than just opinion, even if it's just a tank photo, a video, you name it. I am very much for disseminating information, "information wants to be free", but sometimes it's hard to tell the truths from the background noise, and it's hard to know when to speak and when to keep quiet.

On the flip side, I've unintentionally stumbled upon a few trade secrets (not related to torches), and I won't even talk about them online anymore unless the person also seems equally "in the know" or is a friend, just because, ultimately people just start arguing, demanding proof, etc, and it's just more than I want to deal with. When I can make the time-lapse video demonstrating those tricks, then I'll have less an issue talking about them!

Thanks, honesty makes a lot more sense.

 

[Xero]

Oh my goodness, the torch master!

They're so many, so big, all in the same tank like that. They're all gorgeous. Those clowns are happy. Thanks for the video, it sure says a lot. Your explanation is great. Good job.

To me it goes a long way to show really that torches in fact aren't very picky besides the obvious correct light, water and flow combination, but it seems quite a small range of deviation within the right combination.

There is certainly a very peculiar "combination" going on in that tank that my tank couldn't replicate for sure. Maybe larger tanks could.

I'm not going to mention nutrition which is pretty standard. Water is also something you can measure. Light is also pretty much figured out with Radions. But flow is one thing that isn't standard, it depends on the aquarist to determine the right size, shape and flow of the tank I guess.

Have you ever changed anything (light, water, flow) in these three years in this tank and noticed a change in the torches?

Good question actually.

So my indo gold torch, I originally had in the bottom left corner of the tank. It turned brown, but stretched it's tentacles super long, like stretching for light. I since moved it to the top, it colored back up, tuned super-bright gold, two-tone almost with the blue tips, now i have people telling me it's worth all sorts of crazy money, but it's the same gold torch i paid $75/head for 3 years ago, haha. I'd have to show you a top-down photo of that torch to get the idea. I actually have before/after photos and it's almost crazy how much it changed.

I wouldn't call my nutrition standard, either. I feed VERY heavily. I spot feed all my corals, every single day. Most people think i'm crazy when they see how much I feed. I actually think torches appreciate this. Lobos too (if you saw my gold lobo, that started off purple, but I guess the price went up??? haha)

I'm a kessil guy and this tank is 2x160we. I haven't changed much other than intensity. I accidentally had them set at 50% for a while. I'll try to throw up some more pics for you.

 

[Xero]

same torch 3 years ago when i got it:

The red line indicates the starting point. It actually grew to the top of the tank at which point I fragged it up and re-glued the branches lower.

here's the green when i just got it, 2017-10-24:

 

[Albertoinbox]

Good morning.

Those torches are huge, so tall. Unbelievable how much it reproduced. Super healthy.

Wow, what a slap on the face. I feel motivated.

Ok, so I started this and I might as well end it, for me at least.

I wanna thank Xero from my beloved Colorado for all his contribution and ALL you guys that stepped in and shared your thoughts. To me it was very satisfactory to receive feedback from the community. I have not only found an answer to my question but discussed many ideas, was awed by some crazy videos and pics and learned a lot about torches.

I never gave up on them, just figured out I needed to learn how to keep it properly and stop killing them. After all, people out there grow torches successfully. I will try again and I'm positive I won't fail, although I understand there are different levels of "resistance" from torch to torch and sometimes it just doesnt work out.

I will focus on flow. I switched my e-flux pump (opposite direction to my return pump) mode to wave and I got this smooth back and forth motion kind of what I saw in Xero's tank. I say it looks good. The water is fine. Lights are figured out if you got one of the right ones (whichever brand you prefer). Feeding is standard in a sense that everyone knows what to feed torches and underfeeding is unlikely, today there are many products that meet torches' nutrition needs. Although it is very relevant that you should feed them heavily, which I will, thanks for the tip.

Please feel free to post more pics and videos and add anything about the topic you feel relevant, I will be watching.

Thanks and have a great day even though its Monday and we're all locked up.