What on earth happened to my flame angel :(

[Aronsaquarium]

hi, I’m posting this as an emergency in case something drastic has to be fixed in my tank.
My flame angel was completely normal on Friday. Then yesterday I saw it breathing insanely fast. I gave it a couple hours to see if it was stress in the moment, when it wasn’t calming down I was worried something was in its airways so I gave it a fresh water dip. He only got worse after that, and I had to put him into a QT tank last night.
This morning I walked in, and it was dead (probably last night)

I don’t understand what happened, I haven’t lost a fish in over a year until recently when I lost a Bicolor angel out of the blue.

But this was even more mysterious. From completely healthy eating a Ber good varied diet. Even eating shortly before the fresh water dip. It suddenly went downhill.

Please let me know if there are any other photos needed before I bury it.

Thanks so much!

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[NYAquatic]

One of the pics, looks like flukes in the gills, and possibly the eye.
May be too late to FW dip and see if flukes come off.
If so, need to treat the tank w Prazi

 

[vetteguy53081]

hi, I’m posting this as an emergency in case something drastic has to be fixed in my tank.
My flame angel was completely normal on Friday. Then yesterday I saw it breathing insanely fast. I gave it a couple hours to see if it was stress in the moment, when it wasn’t calming down I was worried something was in its airways so I gave it a fresh water dip. He only got worse after that, and I had to put him into a QT tank last night.
This morning I walked in, and it was dead (probably last night)

I don’t understand what happened, I haven’t lost a fish in over a year until recently when I lost a Bicolor angel out of the blue.

But this was even more mysterious. From completely healthy eating a Ber good varied diet. Even eating shortly before the fresh water dip. It suddenly went downhill.

Please let me know if there are any other photos needed before I bury it.

Thanks so much!

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Its often hard to tell from a dead carcass however there are signs of aggression/nipping visible. In addition, so history will help such as:
How you did FW dip and for how long?
Any notable aggression from tankmates?
Current ammonia and nitrate readings and how you are testing.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

So forgot to say, all the nipping happened near the end when he was lying on his side.
Nothing before then

I’m going to test everything right now.
On strips everything was good. But I’ll test with test tubes now. API.

To note there are 9 other fish in the DT
Queen Angel
Blue tang
Maroon clown
Puffer
Gramma
6 line
Sandsifter
Mandarine
Foxface

All look healthy for what I can see.

The Queen and the flame weren’t the best friends but seemed to be fine together.
They each have their own caves (I made sure of that)
And they were happy for months that way.

But yes the second the flame was down, the Queen bit up its fins at the back
So obviously not the best friends.
But the Queen is significantly larger and completely different shape and colors

 

[Aronsaquarium]

only change that happened recently is.
I added the Mandarine goby on Thursday.

Before adding that I added bottles of tigger pods. First being a month ago.
So not sure if that bothered it.

The mandrine itself isn’t aggressive in any way.

And flukes seem a little long shot for me because I had the Mandarine in QT for a month.
2 rounds of Prazi and as much copper as it would tolerate (after the Prazi was done) before adding him.

And the DT went through 2 rounds of Prazi 3 months ago.

 

[Lavey29]

Multiple angels in the same tank along with a few other aggressive fish? What size tank do you have?

 

[Aronsaquarium]

ok parameters.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-15
PH a little lower because it’s morning 7.8. Usually rises higher throughout the day.

Salinity dropped a little to just above 22. But still should be completely safe there.

Tang 4’ 75g. Good amount of caves etc.

(Yes Blue Tang and Queen angel will need to be rehomed when they outgrow the tank. But I have some time for that)

With the angels issue.

I’ve kept in the past a Bicolor, Coral beauty and raised an Emperor from little juvenile to full coloured 6’ adult. All together for over a year until I rehomed 2 of them.

So having those 2 angeles with a bunch of rock work for them seemed to be good. And they were happy for months.

But idk, maybe I just got extremely lucky the first time. And here the Queen and Flame just didn’t work.

But I didn’t see bullying all day.
Just little Snaps a true flame once in a while, which was normal in the past.
But otherwise swimming around and eating well

 

[Jay Hemdal]

ok parameters.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-15
PH a little lower because it’s morning 7.8. Usually rises higher throughout the day.

Salinity dropped a little to just above 22. But still should be completely safe there.

Tang 4’ 75g. Good amount of caves etc.

(Yes Blue Tang and Queen angel will need to be rehomed when they outgrow the tank. But I have some time for that)

With the angels issue.

I’ve kept in the past a Bicolor, Coral beauty and raised an Emperor from little juvenile to full coloured 6’ adult. All together for over a year until I rehomed 2 of them.

So having those 2 angeles with a bunch of rock work for them seemed to be good. And they were happy for months.

But idk, maybe I just got extremely lucky the first time. And here the Queen and Flame just didn’t work.

But I didn’t see bullying all day.
Just little Snaps a true flame once in a while, which was normal in the past.
But otherwise swimming around and eating well

As long as you are certain the fin damage happened post mortem, then the rapid breathing is the main, only clue. Gill fluke cannot be seen without a microscope. the gills are pale and that is a sign of anemia or gill infections, but it can also be a post-mortem artifact, so in not knowing how long the fish has been dead, there is no way to know if that is a significant finding or not.

What were the circumstances surrounding the loss of the bicolor angel, how long ago and what where the symptoms with it?

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Oh my, one more important thing!
Sorry i forgot. The fish scratched itself on its hill for maybe 5 min or so Saturday morning.
That’s when I stated to keep a close eye on it while it was rapid breathing.
But after those few min of scratching I didn’t see it scratch once. And I watched for a looong time. So thought maybe something was caught there when I fed the tank shortly before. Or like a pod or something

Fin damage wasn’t after it was dead, but after it was on its side not able to swim away from the other fish.
I watched it happen pretty fast which is when I moved it to the QT.
I know that the moved would have stressed it out even more, but from lying on its side, I figured there was a 1% chance it’ll live if moved it then and like 0 if I left it with other fish around it.

The fish was on its side from about 5pm yesterday. And I took it out of the tank with those pics at 10am.
I wasn’t able to check until then, but my feeling is that it probably died last night.
I’ve never seen a fish survive on its side for more than a few hours.


No other fish are showing any signs of stress, scratching or anything of the sort

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Bicolor death seems to have been stress.
Also a little mysterious.
But that was 2/3 months ago.

 

[Lavey29]

ok parameters.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-15
PH a little lower because it’s morning 7.8. Usually rises higher throughout the day.

Salinity dropped a little to just above 22. But still should be completely safe there.

Tang 4’ 75g. Good amount of caves etc.

(Yes Blue Tang and Queen angel will need to be rehomed when they outgrow the tank. But I have some time for that)

With the angels issue.

I’ve kept in the past a Bicolor, Coral beauty and raised an Emperor from little juvenile to full coloured 6’ adult. All together for over a year until I rehomed 2 of them.

So having those 2 angeles with a bunch of rock work for them seemed to be good. And they were happy for months.

But idk, maybe I just got extremely lucky the first time. And here the Queen and Flame just didn’t work.

But I didn’t see bullying all day.
Just little Snaps a true flame once in a while, which was normal in the past.
But otherwise swimming around and eating well

Ok, look at your post history which is basically all fish injury, death, disease, etc.... over and over. Your 75g with nice rockscape is actually 55g, a small medium size tank. You are mixing in fish that belong in 6 to 8 foot tanks 200 to 300 gallons. Yes, I understand you think because they are juveniles and you plan to rehome them everything should be fine but it obviously isn't fine based on your posting history and continued issues.

You need to take a step back and rethink your approach to reefing. If you want larger aggressive fish get a 200g system. My tank is 65g and I have one dwarf angel, no way I would add a second because I know what will happen.

Looking at how you write in detail about your troubles I think you are a conscientious reefer but need to better educate yourself to the hobby before adding any fish and rehome the large aggressive fish from the small tank.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Ok, look at your post history which is basically all fish injury, death, disease, etc.... over and over. Your 75g with nice rockscape is actually 55g, a small medium size tank. You are mixing in fish that belong in 6 to 8 foot tanks 200 to 300 gallons. Yes, I understand you think because they are juveniles and you plan to rehome them everything should be fine but it obviously isn't fine based on your posting history and continued issues.

You need to take a step back and rethink your approach to reefing. If you want larger aggressive fish get a 200g system. My tank is 65g and I have one dwarf angel, no way I would add a second because I know what will happen.

Looking at how you write in detail about your troubles I think you are a conscientious reefer but need to better educate yourself to the hobby before adding any fish and rehome the large aggressive fish from the small tank.

I respect that.
Though if you go back in my posts you’ll see that the issues have largely been small things several months in between them..
It looks worse when you quickly scan until you see that 3 posts are the same time/issue and then half a year and another thing.

I didn’t have a death from beginning of 2022 until July this year.
And the stuff in between we’re things that either came up in quarantine or something that got past my QT process and had to be treated, and was looking for the best options.

In terms or stress and death this only came up now.

Having said that..
Yes Perhaps we say I was just lucky, and was pushing things to the edge, and eventually one or 2 fish didn’t play ball with me.
The real change was rehoming the Emperor angel and getting the Queen.
They’re both similar temperament but maybe that’s what pushed things over.

When I got the Queen I took 2 other fish out of the tank (aside from the Emperor as well.)
I did that because I felt it was overstocked with the 12 fish I had in there. (Many of them being small but still..)

My thinking now is a little different. I think I want to keep the Queen for now as it’s still on the smaller/mid side.
But take out the maroon and bring in regular clowns instead, so I can lower the stress levels in the tank.

Things like that I think will help. The maroon as it grows gets more territorial which is normal. But when you have 3 territorial fish in the same system It can create issues. I get that..

I think the tank can handle one or 2 big ones but any more is risky.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

One more possible explanation.
Temperature has risen to 80.

Had a crazy heat wave yesterday, and though it was cool inside, if the room is 75 instead of 72, the balance with tank lights etc gets thrown off a little.

I’m seeing slightly faster breathing on one or 2 of the fish. But not crazy like the flame had.

This may have also contributed.
I’m currently cooling the tank down

Will see if that helps

 

[Lavey29]

I respect that.
Though if you go back in my posts you’ll see that the issues have largely been small things several months in between them..
It looks worse when you quickly scan until you see that 3 posts are the same time/issue and then half a year and another thing.

I didn’t have a death from beginning of 2022 until July this year.
And the stuff in between we’re things that either came up in quarantine or something that got past my QT process and had to be treated, and was looking for the best options.

In terms or stress and death this only came up now.

Having said that..
Yes Perhaps we say I was just lucky, and was pushing things to the edge, and eventually one or 2 fish didn’t play ball with me.
The real change was rehoming the Emperor angel and getting the Queen.
They’re both similar temperament but maybe that’s what pushed things over.

When I got the Queen I took 2 other fish out of the tank (aside from the Emperor as well.)
I did that because I felt it was overstocked with the 12 fish I had in there. (Many of them being small but still..)

My thinking now is a little different. I think I want to keep the Queen for now as it’s still on the smaller/mid side.
But take out the maroon and bring in regular clowns instead, so I can lower the stress levels in the tank.

Things like that I think will help. The maroon as it grows gets more territorial which is normal. But when you have 3 territorial fish in the same system It can create issues. I get that..

I think the tank can handle one or 2 big ones but any more is risky.

I'm glad you are assessing the situation carefully but every time you add or remove fish you cause an imbalance and stress. The hierarchy changes either at the top, middle or bottom. A fish mysteriously leaves and a stranger moves in. Reef neighborhood in chaos for awhile especially with high energy nervous type fish like tangs and angels. You need to find a reasonable stocking balance and let your reef neighborhood calm down and live in harmony based on the hierarchy of the fish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oh my, one more important thing!
Sorry i forgot. The fish scratched itself on its hill for maybe 5 min or so Saturday morning.
That’s when I stated to keep a close eye on it while it was rapid breathing.
But after those few min of scratching I didn’t see it scratch once. And I watched for a looong time. So thought maybe something was caught there when I fed the tank shortly before. Or like a pod or something

Fin damage wasn’t after it was dead, but after it was on its side not able to swim away from the other fish.
I watched it happen pretty fast which is when I moved it to the QT.
I know that the moved would have stressed it out even more, but from lying on its side, I figured there was a 1% chance it’ll live if moved it then and like 0 if I left it with other fish around it.

The fish was on its side from about 5pm yesterday. And I took it out of the tank with those pics at 10am.
I wasn’t able to check until then, but my feeling is that it probably died last night.
I’ve never seen a fish survive on its side for more than a few hours.


No other fish are showing any signs of stress, scratching or anything of the sort

The scratching may be another clue as to fish having flukes. With flukes you will see loss of appetite, scratching, darting, sudden flashing, labored breathing as some signs. If other fish doing fine, and these two dwarf angels were the only losses thus far, aggression may play a role as well as the signs mentioned.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

+1, I think it was gill flukes as well.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Hmmm ok so if that’s the case what are the risks to other fish?
And what’s a good treatment. Considering I’m cultivating pods in the DT for my Mandarine.

(I only saw it scratch once for a couple min soon after eating. and that was it. No other flashes from it or others. Having said that if it’s something that prazi doesn’t kill, it could have gotten through QT)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hmmm ok so if that’s the case what are the risks to other fish?
And what’s a good treatment. Considering I’m cultivating pods in the DT for my Mandarine.

(I only saw it scratch once for a couple min soon after eating. and that was it. No other flashes from it or others. Having said that if it’s something that prazi doesn’t kill, it could have gotten through QT)

Fluke infections vary by species, and host fish are not all that well known for each type, so it is always a guess. I generally just look for spreading symptoms (rapid breathing, tattered fins, cloudy skin/eyes and scratching). If you see that in the remaining fish, you should consider a prazipro treatments, 2x, 8 days apart. That won't hurt the pop population.

Jay