What ph number to believe

[Lionfish hunter]

And there is definitely a fairly large error in either the pinpoint 10 or the GHL 9 fluid. I cannot say which is correct.

 

[Steve2020]

Never used Apex but there are MANY threads on issues with the ph probe on numerous sites not reading correctly. Not sure why. As far as the pin point calibration fluid, if using it for the GHL ph probe calibration are you changing the 9 calibration setpoint to 10 in the P4? Just asking. Also if you would like some recommendations on boosting your ph with less swings I could PM you on what I am doing. Never hurts to see what others are doing. I do not use kalkwasser and I disconnected my external refugium in the summer of 2021.

Accidently hit reply before finishing the reply. OOPS.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I know my ph is not low. I dose a gallon of kalk per day, have a recirculating co2 scrubber with the perfect amount of humidity, and a large refugium with a powerful light. I just don’t know if it is where I would like it and therefore would stop messing with it.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Never used Apex but there are MANY threads on issues with the ph probe on numerous sites not reading correctly. Not sure why. As far as the pin point calibration fluid, if using it for the GHL ph probe calibration are you changing the 9 calibration setpoint to 10 in the P4? Just asking. Also if you would like some recommendations on boosting your ph with less swings I could PM you on what I am doing. Never hurts to see what others are doing. I do not use kalkwasser and I disconnected my external refugium in the summer of 2021.

Yes I had to change the set point to 10. Just used 10 so the Neptune and GHL were using the same baseline. 9 is more relevant to a reef tank and I will switch back when I figure out what is right and what is wrong. Sure send me a message, I’m all ears for different ways to boost ph.

 

[Steve2020]

I know my ph is not low. I dose a gallon of kalk per day, have a recirculating co2 scrubber with the perfect amount of humidity, and a large refugium with a powerful light. I just don’t know if it is where I would like it and therefore would stop messing with it.

Many people that complain, and not saying you are, that their recirc CO2 scrubber is not doing much for them do not understand how to get good performance out of it. I originally hooked mine up the way I saw most people hooking theirs up and I was not completely happy either. Most seem to run a single airline from their skimmer to the scrubber but I decided to run two and plug the other 6 holes on the lid. I also added an electronic ball valve to regulate the pH but it never opened. I was not seeing the increase I thought I should see so I ran 6 lines to the scrubber and plugged the other two holes. My ph increased so much from running 2 lines to running 6 that with my ball valve disabled my ph was hitting 8.61. I run my setpoint to open the ball valve at 8.45 and close at 8.43. I also run fresh air into the scrubber from the furnace fresh air return that is 65' away from my tank. I was running the fresh air on both setups.

 

[Steve2020]

Yes I had to change the set point to 10. Just used 10 so the Neptune and GHL were using the same baseline. 9 is more relevant to a reef tank and I will switch back when I figure out what is right and what is wrong. Sure send me a message, I’m all ears for different ways to boost ph.

I will PM you with the full setup and description tomorrow. Above is just a small sample.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Many people that complain, and not saying you are, that their recirc CO2 scrubber is not doing much for them do not understand how to get good performance out of it. I originally hooked mine up the way I saw most people hooking theirs up and I was not completely happy either. Most seem to run a single airline from their skimmer to the scrubber but I decided to run two and plug the other 6 holes on the lid. I also added an electronic ball valve to regulate the pH but it never opened. I was not seeing the increase I thought I should see so I ran 6 lines to the scrubber and plugged the other two holes. My ph increased so much from running 2 lines to running 6 that with my ball valve disabled my ph was hitting 8.61. I run my setpoint to open the ball valve at 8.45 and close at 8.43. I also run fresh air into the scrubber from the furnace fresh air return that is 65' away from my tank. I was running the fresh air on both setups.

oh wow that is nuts. I see an increase of around .2 maybe? Haven’t tested in in a good while. I siliconed a tupperware container over the lid and run 1 line to the scrubber. Completely closed loop with no holes not going back to the co2 scrubber.I will try adding more as I have a 6 way manifold in the right size tubing.

I was having major problems with humidity completely soaking my media and rendering it useless. I ran the line from the top of my skimmer into a empty simply lemonade bottle as an air dryer and it worked like a charm. the simply lemonade air dryer collects tons of water and leaves the perfect amount of humidity in my co2 scrubber.

 

[Steve2020]

oh wow that is nuts. I see an increase of around .2 maybe? Haven’t tested in in a good while. I siliconed a tupperware container over the lid and run 1 line to the scrubber. Completely closed loop with no holes not going back to the co2 scrubber.I will try adding more as I have a 6 way manifold in the right size tubing.

I was having major problems with humidity completely soaking my media and rendering it useless. I ran the line from the top of my skimmer into a empty simply lemonade bottle as an air dryer and it worked like a charm. the simply lemonade air dryer collects tons of water and leaves the perfect amount of humidity in my co2 scrubber.

What scrubber are you using? I am using the BRS Duo Jumbo that can collect quite a bit of moisture before having to drain with the drain plug. My media never gets wet. I very rarely have to drain it between media changes which I do about every 5-6wks.

You can see the water collection after about 3wks.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

What scrubber are you using? I am using the BRS Duo Jumbo that can collect quite a bit of moisture before having to drain with the drain plug. My media never gets wet. I very rarely have to drain it between media changes which I do about every 5-6wks.

You can see the water collection after about 3wks.

2 normal brs scrubbers. Media needs changing every 2 months or so.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

many people struggle with accuracy vs precision .

you were throwing accuracy /precision all over the place.. the difference between accuracy (which in the reef world we dont actually care beyond 1 decimal place,) and precision which means even if your reading of 7 is really 6.9 but you make whaterver ph based adjustments you make from that number of 7 on your device and you repeat it from that baseline your tank will be just fine.

@BeanAnimal

I asked both of you to give an example of me messing up accuracy vs precision. Now I am going to have to insist. There were about 20 different accusations so it shouldn’t be hard right?

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

you cant read what you just reposted? or you just chose not to comprehend?

go back to the thread where they are saying its all about repeatability (precision) like my above statemet showing it really doesnt matter if you are at 6.9 or 7.. your talking about accuracy when you really mean precision. (you mention the accuracy of the probe several times . probes export milivolts not ph readings. your device contains the accuracy

or calcium reactor.. i dont care if its 6.4, 6.5, 6.3 etc it just has to be close enough

lets simplify it and define precision and accuracy something simple .
say your are an archer
accuracy= how close you are to hitting the bullseye
precision = are you shooting in a tight grouping.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Please quote what I said because I do not believe there is confusion on my part. I did however see other people confusing the 2.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

And I already told you in a response to your post that I was talking about the accuracy of the actual reading. Talking about the accuracy of the probe and not the reading is pointless and not at all what anybody was talking about.

you cant read what you just reposted? or you just chose not to comprehend?

go back to the thread where they are saying its all about repeatability (precision) like my above statemet showing it really doesnt matter if you are at 6.9 or 7.. your talking about accuracy when you really mean precision. (you mention the accuracy of the probe several times . probes export milivolts not ph readings. your device contains the accuracy

or calcium reactor.. i dont care if its 6.4, 6.5, 6.3 etc it just has to be close enough

lets simplify it and define precision and accuracy something simple .
say your are an archer
accuracy= how close you are to hitting the bullseye
precision = are you shooting in a tight grouping.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

May have been a poor choice of words as I already said but it was not a mix up of precision and accuracy. I was never concerned with the precision of the probe.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I was never concerned with how precise the ph reading was. So please quote me saying I wanted a precise ph reading. I went out of my way multiple times to say I was worried about accuracy and not how precise the ph reading was.

 

[JimWelsh]

In fact I was never concerned with how precise the ph reading was. So please quote me saying I wanted a precise ph reading. I went out of my way multiple times to say I was worried about accuracy and not how precise the ph reading was.

Let me get this straight: Let's say the "true" pH of your tank water is 8.20. For the sake of this thought experiment, let's also assume that your pH is rock solid, and doesn't deviate all day long. Now, let's say that you had two pH probe+meter devices named "DeviceA" and "DeviceB" that gave the following readings over a number of hours:

DeviceA: 8.01 8.34 8.25 8.07 8.15 8.33 8.24 8.22
DeviceB: 8.00 7.99 8.00 7.99 8.00 8.01 7.99 8.00

DeviceA is quite accurate: The average of all those readings is right at 8.20. But, it is imprecise: The standard deviation is 0.12, giving a 95% confidence interval of 0.24. DeviceB, on the other hand, is inacccurate: The average of all those readings is 8.00, but it is quite precise: The SD is 0.007, with a 95% confidence interval of 0.014!

Are you really saying that you would prefer DeviceA over DeviceB? I certainly would not.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Let me get this straight: Let's say the "true" pH of your tank water is 8.20. For the sake of this thought experiment, let's also assume that your pH is rock solid, and doesn't deviate all day long. Now, let's say that you had two pH probe+meter devices named "DeviceA" and "DeviceB" that gave the following readings over a number of hours:

DeviceA: 8.01 8.34 8.25 8.07 8.15 8.33 8.24 8.22
DeviceB: 8.00 7.99 8.00 7.99 8.00 8.01 7.99 8.00

DeviceA is quite accurate: The average of all those readings is right at 8.20. But, it is imprecise: The standard deviation is 0.12, giving a 95% confidence interval of 0.24. DeviceB, on the other hand, is inacccurate: The average of all those readings is 8.00, but it is quite precise: The SD is 0.007, with a 95% confidence interval of 0.014!

Are you really saying that you would prefer DeviceA over DeviceB? I certainly would not.

Let me be perfectly clear. I have had absolutely no trouble with how precise my ph readings are. That is not the issue, the issue for me is accuracy, it has always been accuracy. That is what this post was about.

People keep bringing up precision and then telling me I am mixing up precision and accuracy. I’m not, and I am begging for someone to prove that I am mixing them up by quoting my own post. Why? Because there are 20 posts about people telling me I don’t know the difference. So prove it! And if you can’t, there is some explaining that needs to happen.

Quote me mixing them up, nothing else besides my own words should be posted from here on. And if I am wrong, I will admit to it.

 

[Bear Claw]

I have tested ph hundreds of times with many different tests. and have absolutely no idea what it actually is. My api test shows 7.7-8.1, a Hanna checker which I threw away showed anywhere from 7.8 to flashing 8.6 on the same day depending on what bottle of reagent I used. I even bought the Hanna calibrated ph vials to make sure the checker was working properly as recommended by hannah, it was. My Hanna ph probe calibrated with 2 different fluids shows 7.6-8.0. Seneye generally shows 8.2-8.35. And now I have a brand new GHL calibrated probe connected to my profolux controller showing 8.35-8.45 which also seems impossible. See attached.

My alkalinity stays at 8.5. I only dose all for reef. I have an appropriately sized skimmer. A large refrugium with a mountain of chaeto that runs 12 hours at night under a very bright grow light. And there are very little people in my house breathing co2. 3 radios G5’s at 50% over a 235 gallon tank. If nobody is in the house for days, my ph numbers do not change. I have 2 mp40s as high as they can go toward the surface at 100% on reef crest.

If I take a cup of water out and put an air stone in it, inside the house, the ph will boost from 7.8 to 8.2 according to api, which oddly enough I trust the most even after spending hundreds on other tests. And I’m not sure how I don’t have enough airation.


I seriously have no idea what my ph actually is.

@Randy Holmes-Farley any input?

I think the only way you can really tell which tester is more accurate is to send in a test sample to be tested in a lab, and right before or right after sending in the sample test with both testers and once you get back the lab results, see which tester is more accurate.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

Please quote what I said because I do not believe there is confusion on my part. I did however see other people confusing the 2.

just highlight the whole thread .. you are very confused.. seem to think you will magically keep your ph at a higher number and "double " your coral gowth, im not gonna search for you.... no sorry but keep alk stable is how most people grow corals. not pretending they know better and they found a magic ph that doubles growth then claim none of the reef controllers are accurate enough. etc.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

just highlight the whole thread .. you are very confused.. seem to think you will magically keep your ph at a higher number and "double " your coral gowth, im not gonna search for you.... no sorry but keep alk stable is how most people grow corals. not pretending they know better and they found a magic ph that doubles growth then claim none of the reef controllers are accurate enough. etc.

Doubling growth with higher ph is a claim from brs investigates. They weighed the corals in a controlled experiment. Also confirmed with many other people including myself. I also said explicitly that I don’t have a magic number and would like to average natural seawater. How on earth do you have such a problem with this?


You can’t quote me mixing them up because I never did. It is absolutely insane how many times you said it and you can’t quote me doing it at all.