What salts use chelated ca?

[ddc0715]

Just watch a video about ionic balance an one of many light bulbs went off in my head. First being chelated ca. This ca is un usable by the corals because it can not separate from the chelate. Does an one know what salt mixes use this form of ca?
Second light bulb that went of was the extra levels of sodium cholride that maybe present in my tank, I have always wonder why my sal rises from time to time.. so I may become a baller user

 

[Saltyreef]

Ballin here
Brs hybrid style.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not aware of ANY salt mixes that use chelated calcium, and a video that suggested it is not reliable, IMO. It is far more expensive than calcium chloride. If anyone used it, they would claim it.

What are you dosing now? Many commercial two parts do not cause an excess of sodium chloride, they just boost everything equally so you just need to monitor salinity.

 

[ddc0715]

at the moment I am dose brs ca, and food-grade soda ash. I get the soda ash from the co-op for 30 bucks for a 5lb bag.
I have no opinion on the accuracy of some videos but they made me start pondering several things, the first one being my 2 part dosing and sodium chloride.

1. do I stop using the food-grade ash, even tho there have been no ill effects on my tank mixes fine and does the job. I have done a few icp tests in the past and nothing stood out as high other than lithium I believe.

2. I went back and looked at my sal and I have seen swings to the higher side but they were few and far in between (not common). I read your article on part c in the Ballard method and that one should not confuse trace with part c. should I combat the minor( I assume) imbalance of sodium chloride?

3. stop mix and matching 2 parts ( co-op ash and brs ca) and go with one brand for each. and add a part c.

4. if ionic balance is approx 3:1 mg to ca (depends on your source I know ) I am out of balance, so do I just continue on with what I'm using and dose until the balance is reached.

 

[LuizW13]

Lou from Tropic Marin gave an example of how to identify chelated Calcium in a video he was on, but I forgot exactly what it was and what video. Could have been from one of his live streams with ReefDudes or a Macna presentation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

at the moment I am dose brs ca, and food-grade soda ash. I get the soda ash from the co-op for 30 bucks for a 5lb bag.
I have no opinion on the accuracy of some videos but they made me start pondering several things, the first one being my 2 part dosing and sodium chloride.

1. do I stop using the food-grade ash, even tho there have been no ill effects on my tank mixes fine and does the job. I have done a few icp tests in the past and nothing stood out as high other than lithium I believe.

2. I went back and looked at my sal and I have seen swings to the higher side but they were few and far in between (not common). I read your article on part c in the Ballard method and that one should not confuse trace with part c. should I combat the minor( I assume) imbalance of sodium chloride?

3. stop mix and matching 2 parts ( co-op ash and brs ca) and go with one brand for each. and add a part c.

4. if ionic balance is approx 3:1 mg to ca (depends on your source I know ) I am out of balance, so do I just continue on with what I'm using and dose until the balance is reached.

I think you are overreacting (many people have been using this recipe for many years with no apparent issues), but it is disappointing that more people using the BRS recipe that they took from my DIY only use part of the recipe and ignore the magnesium and sulfate parts that help maintain ionic balance.

#3 is not a useful change, as long as the alk and calcium parts are each adequately pure.

The best bet is a commercial two part like ESV B-ionic that does not cause any ionic imbalances, or to use the Balling Part C with your own alk and calcium parts.

A cheaper alternative is to use my part 3, which adds magnesium and sulfate.

NEVER gauge the appropriate ion levels by ratios. Magnesium is fine and appropriate in the 1250-1400 ppm range, regardless of calcium.

 

[ddc0715]

Well just to clear the air I'm not a reaction based person. Once a light goes off or an idea sounds solid I talk it thru for a long time before acting. An if it just does not work out on paper then i never implement it. Hahaha.

What is your 3 part recipe Or just the third (partc) ? Is it kust mag an sulfate mixed together or is it a spec brand. ? An if I'm understanding you right, the simple addtion of billings part c would work?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well just to clear the air I'm not a reaction based person. Once a light goes off or an idea sounds solid I talk it thru for a long time before acting. An if it just does not work out on paper then i never implement it. Hahaha.

What is your 3 part recipe Or just the third (partc) ? Is it kust mag an sulfate mixed together or is it a spec brand. ? An if I'm understanding you right, the simple addtion of billings part c would work?

Balling Part C is a better but more expensive choice for the third part of a DIY two part.

I have a variety of two part recipes around, but the original one that BRS uses is here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The article contains a discussion about balancing ions such as sulfate and potassium as well as the normal calcium, alk, and magnesium.

My newer recipes use sodium hydroxide for the alk part to attain the highest possible pH boost, when folks want that.

 

[ddc0715]

Thanks.I'm about to ask a really stupid question but I have no shame. Is kalwasser the same as soda ash? Is kalwasser sodium hydroxide?.

I mean I have always wondered if true (kalwasser is sodium hydroxide), why call sodium hydroxide kalwasser? That's hard to understand for someone who has a literal mind as I do.

 

[14 foot reef]

Kalkwasser: A German term that means literally chalk-water, this is water with calcium hydroxide Ca(OH)2 dissolved in it, and has a pH of approximately 12.0. Adding kalkwasser is the preferred way to maintain calcium levels in a marine tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.I'm about to ask a really stupid question but I have no shame. Is kalwasser the same as soda ash? Is kalwasser sodium hydroxide?.

I mean I have always wondered if true (kalwasser is sodium hydroxide), why call sodium hydroxide kalwasser? That's hard to understand for someone who has a literal mind as I do.

I detail many of the ways of adding calcium and alkalinity, including kalkwasser, here:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

There is no aspect of reef aquarium chemistry more important than calcium and alkalinity. Many of my previous articles have described various aspects of these systems in detail. In reading those articles, aquarists will note one pervasive theme: that maintaining appropriate levels of each are...

www.reefedition.com

 

[ddc0715]

so I could start dosing kalkwasser to meet my CA and ALK needs. This would free up one of my Neptune dos pumps allowing me the ability to dose the third part? correct?

because the Kalk solution contains calcium hydroxide and when it separates in the water (ionizes), the hydroxide combines with the co2 in the tank and makes bicarbonate and thus a raise in ph and meeting my alk needs as well......correct. 2 birds with one stone kinda thing. OR would one have to continue to dose ca (part 1), alk (part 2).mg (part 3 ) and add a fourth. that being kalkwasser making ones set up a four-part dosing setup.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so I could start dosing kalkwasser to meet my CA and ALK needs. This would free up one of my Neptune dos pumps allowing me the ability to dose the third part? correct?

because the Kalk solution contains calcium hydroxide and when it separates in the water (ionizes), the hydroxide combines with the co2 in the tank and makes bicarbonate and thus a raise in ph and meeting my alk needs as well......correct. 2 birds with one stone kinda thing. OR would one have to continue to dose ca (part 1), alk (part 2).mg (part 3 ) and add a fourth. that being kalkwasser making ones set up a four-part dosing setup.

A dosing pump may not have the delivery capability since you need to dose a lot of kalkwasser, often replacing all evaporated water, and sometimes that is still not enough.

The optimal recipe for magnesium is different when using kalkwasser than when using calcium chloride and an alk additive. Balling Part C is not optimal in that use.

I discuss different magnesium recipes here:

Do-It-Yourself Magnesium Supplements for the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[ddc0715]

im reading a lot about the ato application is no longer a preferred delivery for accuracy and cost of equipment Kalk damages? in my mind, if I installed a dos, set a starting dose at say 24mls daily ( 1 ml an hour) controlled the dos (on or off) via the ph probe, and or the alk level, and or the ca level ( i have a trident), could i not dial in the dose? the theroy is sound. what would you recommend as a delivery method

I read that mag article last night seems mag flake is hard to get unless you order a pallet full. I do have some mag sulfate on hand i may use it to adjust. my current mg is 1235.

It's almost hot tub time so i may order the mag flake product on amazon and see if I can use it in one of your reciepes. the worse cause is i use it in my hot tub so really no loss for me. do you have any newer mag products that you like? i can not afford a pallet of mag flake lolllllololol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

im reading a lot about the ato application is no longer a preferred delivery for accuracy and cost of equipment Kalk damages? in my mind, if I installed a dos, set a starting dose at say 24mls daily ( 1 ml an hour) controlled the dos (on or off) via the ph probe, and or the alk level, and or the ca level ( i have a trident), could i not dial in the dose? the theroy is sound. what would you recommend as a delivery method

I read that mag article last night seems mag flake is hard to get unless you order a pallet full. I do have some mag sulfate on hand i may use it to adjust. my current mg is 1235.

It's almost hot tub time so i may order the mag flake product on amazon and see if I can use it in one of your reciepes. the worse cause is i use it in my hot tub so really no loss for me. do you have any newer mag products that you like? i can not afford a pallet of mag flake lolllllololol.

A slow timed pump is likely preferred, but I used it as an ATO for 20 years and it seemed fine in my system.

BRS sells a suitable magnesium chloride.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Just watch a video about ionic balance an one of many light bulbs went off in my head. First being chelated ca. This ca is un usable by the corals because it can not separate from the chelate. Does an one know what salt mixes use this form of ca?
Second light bulb that went of was the extra levels of sodium cholride that maybe present in my tank, I have always wonder why my sal rises from time to time.. so I may become a baller user

Hi David,

The video that you watched was an older one. I was in error in that video and have since made efforts to "retract" that comment. But things on the INTERNET never go away! While my description, in that old video, is correct about what would happen if a salt mix did use it, I am not aware of any salt mixes that currently use chelated forms of calcium. They may be out there. There are certainly salt mixes out today that have more of a propensity for precipitation, and others that do not. I do not believe that those qualities are the result of the use of chelated calcium.

The other comments that you are referencing, in relation to the excess sodium chloride, that is produced with the traditional 2 part method, are absolutely something that I stand by. And I do not believe that substitutes for the complete Balling Part C, that consist of less then ALL the components of sea water, minus sodium chloride, Ca and alkalinity, do the job of fully ionically balancing that left over sodium chloride from the addition of the Parts A and B.

 

[ddc0715]

Hi David,

The video that you watched was an older one. I was in error in that video and have since made efforts to "retract" that comment. But things on the INTERNET never go away! While my description, in that old video, is correct about what would happen if a salt mix did use it, I am not aware of any salt mixes that currently use chelated forms of calcium. They may be out there. There are certainly salt mixes out today that have more of a propensity for precipitation, and others that do not. I do not believe that those qualities are the result of the use of chelated calcium.

The other comments that you are referencing, in relation to the excess sodium chloride, that is produced with the traditional 2 part method, are absolutely something that I stand by. And I do not believe that substitutes for the complete Balling Part C, that consist of less then ALL the components of sea water, minus sodium chloride, Ca and alkalinity, do the job of fully ionically balancing that left over sodium chloride from the addition of the Parts A and B.

Your video made so many lightbulbs go off in my head... I thank u for it. I'm not worried about the salt topic anymore. Would love to run my crazy mined ideas by u some time about this

 

[Lou Ekus]

Your video made so many lightbulbs go off in my head... I thank u for it. I'm not worried about the salt topic anymore. Would love to run my crazy mined ideas by u some time about this

Hi David,

Any time you would like to talk, my office number is 413-367-0101. I am available most days during East Coast business hours.

 

[ddc0715]

Hi David,

Any time you would like to talk, my office number is 413-367-0101. I am available most days during East Coast business hours.

hey lou
I goy my tropic phos pro test and the rapid phos additive the other day and as I was reading . the rapid phos mentions absorb granules. but i can not seem to find them online any advice on where to track tropic brand down. Or will an type work.