What to do next time

[seased]

I wanted to get some advice/feedback after attempting to QT a copperband that died last night. I want to see what I could do different the next time. I purchased the fish about a month ago and he immediately went into QT with a 6 line wrasse. The tank is a 10 gallon with a HOB filter. Only other thing in the tank was a piece of PVC for hiding, heater, and an ammonia alert badge. I tried various foods and found that he would pick at some frozen but really went after live black worms. I fed him several times a day. Around 12 days into QT, the wrasse had a white spot on his head and I have heard that copperbands typically bring something in. So I decided to start treating with copper. I used copper power and was going to add .25 per day until I got to 2.0. When I got to .50, I went in one morning and the six line had died and the copperband was not moving much and not eating. I immediately setup another 10 gallon QT with new water and transferred the fish to the new tank. After a few days, it resumed eating the live black worms, but not eat like it did previously. I noticed that it was twitching his head a lot and darting around the tank. Also, he was breathing rapidly. I then decided that I needed to treat for parasites, so I put a dose of API General Cure into the tank. He seemed fine after 48 hours, so I added the second dose. I went in this morning to check on him and he had died. With that said, any recommendations on what I could have done differently? Thanks!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I wanted to get some advice/feedback after attempting to QT a copperband that died last night. I want to see what I could do different the next time. I purchased the fish about a month ago and he immediately went into QT with a 6 line wrasse. The tank is a 10 gallon with a HOB filter. Only other thing in the tank was a piece of PVC for hiding, heater, and an ammonia alert badge. I tried various foods and found that he would pick at some frozen but really went after live black worms. I fed him several times a day. Around 12 days into QT, the wrasse had a white spot on his head and I have heard that copperbands typically bring something in. So I decided to start treating with copper. I used copper power and was going to add .25 per day until I got to 2.0. When I got to .50, I went in one morning and the six line had died and the copperband was not moving much and not eating. I immediately setup another 10 gallon QT with new water and transferred the fish to the new tank. After a few days, it resumed eating the live black worms, but not eat like it did previously. I noticed that it was twitching his head a lot and darting around the tank. Also, he was breathing rapidly. I then decided that I needed to treat for parasites, so I put a dose of API General Cure into the tank. He seemed fine after 48 hours, so I added the second dose. I went in this morning to check on him and he had died. With that said, any recommendations on what I could have done differently? Thanks!

2.0 too low as copper works after you get to 2.0 and ramping up at .25 daily is not recommended. Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible
I do not trust ammonia alert after 2 weeks in the tank with copper and you want to test manually with a reliable test kit as I will never rely on a Badge that is also for freshwater to sustain $100 or more in fish
The twitching and rapid breathing are signs of flukes which may have been the culprit

 

[seased]

Is it OK to increase copper 1.0ppm daily and basically take a little over 2 days to reach that level? Was it wise to remove the fish when it showed signs of distress? Looking back, the fish never regained a good appetite after transferring to the new tank.

I waited almost 2 weeks before I started any meds. I thought it would be best to get the fish eating. Would I have been better off beginning treatment just a few days in the QT? Probably starting with copper and later adding either prazi or metro.

I decided to use General Cure since it contains both prazi and metro - so I was trying to cover all of my bases. Is General Cure considered a harsh treatment? Would it have been better to use Praxi pro or Metro seperately?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I wanted to get some advice/feedback after attempting to QT a copperband that died last night. I want to see what I could do different the next time. I purchased the fish about a month ago and he immediately went into QT with a 6 line wrasse. The tank is a 10 gallon with a HOB filter. Only other thing in the tank was a piece of PVC for hiding, heater, and an ammonia alert badge. I tried various foods and found that he would pick at some frozen but really went after live black worms. I fed him several times a day. Around 12 days into QT, the wrasse had a white spot on his head and I have heard that copperbands typically bring something in. So I decided to start treating with copper. I used copper power and was going to add .25 per day until I got to 2.0. When I got to .50, I went in one morning and the six line had died and the copperband was not moving much and not eating. I immediately setup another 10 gallon QT with new water and transferred the fish to the new tank. After a few days, it resumed eating the live black worms, but not eat like it did previously. I noticed that it was twitching his head a lot and darting around the tank. Also, he was breathing rapidly. I then decided that I needed to treat for parasites, so I put a dose of API General Cure into the tank. He seemed fine after 48 hours, so I added the second dose. I went in this morning to check on him and he had died. With that said, any recommendations on what I could have done differently? Thanks!

Sorry to hear. There were multiple possible issues here (It's complicated, I know).

First, copperbands have a very high mortality rate during quarantine. Some are collected with cyanide and many of those will die no matter what you do. Then, some just do not adapt well to aquarium foods. Finally, they are as prone to diseases as any other fish are.

Second, it is always wrong to ramp up coppersafe or copper power slowly. This is old, incorrect advice based on ionic copper products, these are different. Going slowly allows diseases to take hold.

Third, holding fish for 12 days without a proactive treatment also allows diseases to get started, then they are much more difficult to cure. Always start copper within 3 days of the fish arriving, or even sooner if the fish have adapted to the tank well.

The secondary symptoms seem like flukes, but the initial problem was probably protozoan - if you took the fish out of copper and treated for flukes, that leaves the fish exposed to the original protozoan infection

The 10 gallon QT is a bit small - you can use it, but you must ensure there is adequate biological filtration to keep the ammonia at zero. What I do is leave a good sponge filter operating in my DT's sump, or otherwise have bio media (non-calcium based) that I can move over when starting up the QT.

My standard quarantine process is at this link:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[seased]

Thanks for information and the QT protocol link. There is a lot of QT information out there - pulling it all together can be difficult.

Just a few more follow up questions - on the food - was it ok to use live black worms? I did not want to keep the fish on it long term, I was just wanting it to eat. The plan was to introduce normal frozen foods down the road.

On API General Cure - is it considered a harsh treatment? Should it be avoided?

The LFS where I got the fish said that I needed to keep the SG at the shipping bag level. The bag water was 1.020, so I made the QT at the level. He said they keep them at a lower SG to lessen the chance of disease. I keep my DT at 1.026. Would it have been better to start at a higher SG ie. 1.023 and acclimate the fish a little longer?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for information and the QT protocol link. There is a lot of QT information out there - pulling it all together can be difficult.

Just a few more follow up questions - on the food - was it ok to use live black worms? I did not want to keep the fish on it long term, I was just wanting it to eat. The plan was to introduce normal frozen foods down the road.

On API General Cure - is it considered a harsh treatment? Should it be avoided?

The LFS where I got the fish said that I needed to keep the SG at the shipping bag level. The bag water was 1.020, so I made the QT at the level. He said they keep them at a lower SG to lessen the chance of disease. I keep my DT at 1.026. Would it have been better to start at a higher SG ie. 1.023 and acclimate the fish a little longer?

Live blackworm often a good enticer but these are sewer worms and if left uneaten as they dont live long in saltwater can quickly foul your water.
Low salinity at 1.020 is not advised. Hypo at 1.009 is the salinity for disease control and you want to keep tank at - at least 1.024- 1.026 and bring bag water to that level during acclimation. Matching was however correct.
For acclimation, there are many methods, dip, bucket, etc and mine is listed below. General cure is Not Harsh and the longer you wait to properly treat, the higher the risk to livestock.

My acclimation method (not the only one out there):
I generally:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for information and the QT protocol link. There is a lot of QT information out there - pulling it all together can be difficult.

Just a few more follow up questions - on the food - was it ok to use live black worms? I did not want to keep the fish on it long term, I was just wanting it to eat. The plan was to introduce normal frozen foods down the road.

On API General Cure - is it considered a harsh treatment? Should it be avoided?

The LFS where I got the fish said that I needed to keep the SG at the shipping bag level. The bag water was 1.020, so I made the QT at the level. He said they keep them at a lower SG to lessen the chance of disease. I keep my DT at 1.026. Would it have been better to start at a higher SG ie. 1.023 and acclimate the fish a little longer?

I'm not a fan of blackworms. They can be full of bacteria if not cared for properly. I will use them to entice some species of fish to start eating, but then I switch them off that if I am able.

General Cure is praziquantel and metronidazole, used properly, it is fine.

An SG of 1.020 doesn't really limit any diseases. If you drop to 1.009 (hyposalinity) you can control flukes and marine ich. However, Velvet and Uronema thrive at lower SG.

A SG of 1.020 does help fish maintain osmotic balance with the water though, and can reduce stress.

Jay