When to deal with stray voltage.

[Russ265]

Without the grounding probe, I had around 45v! Now its zero with the probe installed. EVERYTHING running in the tank totals that 45v.

I'm going to figure out to check current.

@twilliard spawn demon electrician!

 

[Dom]

I provided you with an article on page one showing how to test everything one by one. This has nothing to do with your stand, and no I would definitely not take the tank down to add a sheet of wood for the purpose of insulating against electricity. However, putting a sheet of plywood between my steel stand and my glass aquarium is what the manufacturer told me to do. Plywood has a little give, where steel does not.

I understand the idea; unplug everything and with a meter in place, reconnect each item to find the problem device. The problem is that EVERYTHING is adding voltage; as I connect devices, the voltage climbs.

 

[redfishbluefish]

I'm not sure how to simply explain this, but I'll try. When you have voltage in your tank, and there is no place for the voltage to go, it just sits there......like a battery sitting on a table....no FLOW of electricity. Now, when you create a path for that electricity to flow (sticking in the grounding probe), you're now created current (the flow of electricity), and that's now a problem.

The other analogy is the bird sitting on the power lines....voltage is there, but no current (through the bird). Let that bird touch a grounded wire (or the ground), and the voltage flows (current), frying the bird.

A grounding probe in your tank without being connected to a GFI protects YOU and not your livestock. A grounding probe in your tank with a GFI protects everybody (but now comes with the issues of tripping).

 

[Russ265]

I understand the idea; unplug everything and with a meter in place, reconnect each item to find the problem device. The problem is that EVERYTHING is adding voltage; as I connect devices, the voltage climbs.

dont get me wrong. not a fan of melev. however, in this case he is right. if you have an accumulation of voltage each time you place something online, then you have some electrical seep.

i have 2v leak with my eheim heater. the rest is 0.

something is coming in to contact with your equipment to get that high of a load

 

[Russ265]

I'm not sure how to simply explain this, but I'll try. When you have voltage in your tank, and there is no place for the voltage to go, it just sits there......like a battery sitting on a table....no FLOW of electricity. Now, when you create a path for that electricity to flow (sticking in the grounding probe), you're now created current (the flow of electricity), and that's now a problem.

The other analogy is the bird sitting on the power lines....voltage is there, but no current (through the bird). Let that bird touch a grounded wire (or the ground), and the voltage flows (current), frying the bird.

i love you...

 

[Dom]

dont get me wrong. not a fan of melev. however, in this case he is right. if you have an accumulation of voltage each time you place something online, then you have some electrical seep.

i have 2v leak with my eheim heater. the rest is 0.

something is coming in to contact with your equipment to get that high of a load

I'm not sure what you mean. Please give an example of "something coming into contact".

 

[Russ265]

I'm not sure what you mean. Please give an example of "something coming into contact".

stray wire under silicone or a rubber boot with the water

electricity doesnt esp itself in to your water column

 

[Dom]

So, a search on this subject shows a thread on nano-reef where the overall consensus is that grounding probes are bad because it allows current to flow through the tank. So what's the right answer?? I just put the probe in the tank today. Do I pull it out? is voltage in the tank the lesser of two evils?

Until I get this issue resolved, which should I do?

 

[Russ265]

So, a search on this subject shows a thread on nano-reef where the overall consensus is that grounding probes are bad because it allows current to flow through the tank. So what's the right answer?? I just put the probe in the tank today. Do I pull it out? is voltage in the tank the lesser of two evils?

Until I get this issue resolved, which should I do?

pull the grounding probe. or risk semi-sushi

 

[Dom]

pull the grounding probe. or risk semi-sushi

Probe pulled. Back up to 44v. Short of replacing everything in the tank with DC counterparts, I don't know what else to do.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So, a search on this subject shows a thread on nano-reef where the overall consensus is that grounding probes are bad because it allows current to flow through the tank. So what's the right answer?? I just put the probe in the tank today. Do I pull it out? is voltage in the tank the lesser of two evils?

Until I get this issue resolved, which should I do?

Ask Melev. Probably the most solid reefer here. And [HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG]
Were getting a lot of conflicting info.

You need to make up your own mind based on experience and research(not IMO hobbyist rumor).
I have a probe. Been an electrician 25 years. seen stuff fry on a gfci, seen stuff fry on a grounded system. seen stuff fry on and earthed system.
My t5 retro came with no ground on the reflector, so I added them. touch a t5 and youll get bit. not on mine though.
A probe is there for you. and personally my safety and my wife and kid is more important than my fish sorry.

And duh, plug the batter in to the gfci. If it trips the battery comes on.

And the answer really seems to be no one knows if its bad for fish that I have seen proof of. How bad is a cell phone in your pocket or living under powerlines.
I actually know.
and Im going DC. AC in saltwater is dumb. But edison pulled a nasty one on us all. In Teslas model AC was for transmission to spin the turbines on edisons DC plants for distribution. Edisdon was but sore he didnt think of it and the DC plants were already such a bust he crushed Tesla in a drug fueled stupor. google it. or read a book.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

pull the grounding probe. or risk semi-sushi

lol

 

[Waterjockey]

For what it is worth, I would not put a grounding probe in a tank unless you were first covered by a gfci.

I have one more question out of curiosity, does the voltage change depending on if the pumps are running or not? Since you show zero current, it leads me to suspect it is an induced voltage (think holding a florescent tube near a high tension power line and the bulb lights up from the induction.) If it is induction, the voltage will likely be higher when the pumps are running, vs when they are off. If it is induction, I suspect it won't affect or trip a gfci..which is *your* and your livestocks best protection in the event of a short in your tank...they can be purchased for under $20 bucks. If you have a gfci installed, and it's just induced voltage, a grounding probe will likely "drain" the induced voltage.

Putting a sheet of plywood or similar insulating material is only a short term solution. Before long salt creep is going to bridge that gap, rendering it moot.

Cheers!

 

[fab]

I provided you with an article on page one showing how to test everything one by one. This has nothing to do with your stand, and no I would definitely not take the tank down to add a sheet of wood ...

I fully agree!

Also be sure to read the article he pointed you to.

 

[fab]

I'd have to empty out the whole tank and remove it to put down plywood.

Don't bother.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

For what it is worth, I would not put a grounding probe in a tank unless you were first covered by a gfci.

I have one more question out of curiosity, does the voltage change depending on if the pumps are running or not? Since you show zero current, it leads me to suspect it is an induced voltage (think holding a florescent tube near a high tension power line and the bulb lights up from the induction.) If it is induction, the voltage will likely be higher when the pumps are running, vs when they are off. If it is induction, I suspect it won't affect or trip a gfci..which is *your* and your livestocks best protection in the event of a short in your tank...they can be purchased for under $20 bucks. If you have a gfci installed, and it's just induced voltage, a grounding probe will likely "drain" the induced voltage.

Putting a sheet of plywood or similar insulating material is only a short term solution. Before long salt creep is going to bridge that gap, rendering it moot.

Cheers!

Well said sir.
All the voltage and current in a tank is ALL induction. positively charged electrons(in tank, emf) looking for ground or earth.
thats why the GFI tripps.
As the PH of the tank changes during the day so does its conductivity. Ie residual voltage through ground "changes" becoming more conductive allowing a higher milliamp, current making a trip. A GFCI that has a variable trip amperage is available but expensive. Or search a higher trip miliamperage gfci .
Mine at work are rated at max load 3200Amps. we have a tech set it (the milliamp trip limit of the GFCI) according to load and lights. tungsten or dimmer or Arc(hmi) as they have different residual ground voltage characteristics.

BUT. The grounded probe never stops taking AC current away from your body.:)

willing to hear a better argument.
Trying to spread truth science and safety.

 

[Peanut]

if you were going to add a probe, does placement matter. The display tank vs the sump?

 

[Waterjockey]

Well said sir.
All the voltage and current in a tank is ALL induction. positively charged electrons(in tank, emf) looking for ground or earth.
thats why the GFI tripps.
As the PH of the tank changes during the day so does its conductivity. Ie residual voltage through ground "changes" becoming more conductive allowing a higher milliamp, current making a trip. A GFCI that has a variable trip amperage is available but expensive. Or search a higher trip miliamperage gfci .
Mine at work are rated at max load 3200Amps. we have a tech set it (the milliamp trip limit of the GFCI) according to load and lights. tungsten or dimmer or Arc(hmi) as they have different residual ground voltage characteristics.

BUT. The grounded probe never stops taking AC current away from your body.:)

willing to hear a better argument.
Trying to spread truth science and safety.

Hi! Yes, there are a few different types of fault ciruit interrupters, but the ones sold at your local hardware store for consumer home use, look at the difference in the current flowing through the hot lead, and the current flowing through the neutral lead. If this current exceeds 5 milliamps, it will trip. Induction, whether it be an electric field from standing voltage, or an electromagnetic field from flowing current, *should* have little effect on the residential gfci...the "emf" is dissipated constantly regardless whether it is through the air, or the saline solution in our tanks, etc, and doesn't affect real current measurements (but will have an effect on vars or volt-amps-reactive). I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure the gfci generally "see" an emf flow as they (afaik) don't "see" powerfactor (vars).
Industrial fault detectors are an entirely different beast, and yes, most now a days are fully programmable, including high-sensitivity "maintenance mode", with settable inverse time/current delays in normal mode. While a residential gfci does have an inverse current/time function, they are not adjustable.

Slightly off topic...part of the fault detection and tripping systems we use for monitoring the powerlines in the grid use similar equipment to what you described at your work....but with a ton more relaying/communications between injection and tripping switchgear (it's very important on the grid for all the breakers and switches to talk to each other and decide who is going to do the tripping, and when, and who is going to sit around and wait incase somebody else fails to do thier job lol).

As I have said before, a ground probe in the tank, without a gfci supplying the tank, imho could be a deadly trap.

Cheers!

 

[Salty1962]

Place a grounding probe in your tank and it should take care of stray voltage. I use one and have 0 stray voltage in my tank. You need to run a GFCI so you don't get zapped good in the future. JME

 

[ThePapa]

Lots of variables here, mutual induction, electrolysis, bonding of the ground circuit just to name a few. Loose ground wires withing the house wiring, quality of the ground rod and soil conditions can add to the variables. Sometimes you run into hospital grade outlets, they have dedicated runs all the way back to the power center and dedicated bonding to ground all to minimize fluctuations that would affect telemetry. Sometimes isolation transformers are used. Yes I get .3 amps with just the circulator plugged in. Do I hear titanium ground for the tank bonded to the outlet ground, yea.