Why a "dead only" diet is a death sentence

lion king

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I have always been a advocate for feeding live foods to certain species, I have seen the increase of captive lifespan and vibrancy of these species by doing so. After contemplating on the shear failure of 999% of those that are determined to feed a dead only diet, I will no longer support this idea for certain species. These species include all the Scorpaenidae with a few exceptions, anglers, goblins, and any of the ambush predators. I've read articles from marine biologists that kind of explain it, but seeing 1st hand, there is just no denying it. Popular hobbyists magazines also mention the dismal lifespan and mention diet being the primary root cause, but offer no solutions. Perhaps the metabolism of the fish that live a gorge/fast routine, metabolize their nutrients differently. there is also a question of enrichment, this also happens with land predators in captivity; without the thrill or natural instinct of the hunt, they just give up. Malnutrition can effect some species within several months and while eels can live on dead diet, if not fed a proper diet, usually don't live much more than a couple of years. Slowly starving or just stop eating, as well as disease sets in with an improper diet. There are very, very few that have success more than a year with dwarf and medium bodied lions, anglers, goblins, and scorps; if they are dead set on feeding a "dead only" diet.

Here are some of the undeniable aspects of failure in feeding a "dead only" diet. 1st off there are no guarantees some will ever take dead food. I've watch people buy one after another, and let the previous one starve, until they a got a fuzzy, etc. to take dead food. They will not survive from broadcast feeding; people tell me their fuzzy, etc. eats mysis and such from the water column; or scoops up bits off the substrate. That fish is slowly starving to death, and it could take a few months, although likely sooner, but they will starve to death. For those that do get them to eat dead food, and even properly target feed them; the most common foods fed are krill, silversides, and shrimp. These foods will lead to malnutrition and death within a couple of years, and I'm being generous with a couple of years, it could be as soon as several months. Most lfs silversides are smelt or some other fish high in thiaminese, and krill is the #1 culprit in a poor diet choice, the king of thiaminese. Shrimp also contains thiaminese, and old frozen shrimp is even more depleted in vitamin B1. Thiaminese binds vitamin B1, and this deficiency alone will cause premature death. A dead only diet rarely, if ever, includes the essential fatty acids necessary; there was a study posted here on lionfish nutrition that spelled this out in detail. Bones and shells and guts are also key ingredients in a necessary diet. If these fish don't die of malnutrition, their immune system becomes compromised and they die from disease or injury. I've seen compared injuries heal in my tanks with no intervention at all, while in other's tank turn into bacterial infections and kill. All because of an inadequate diet.

What is success, a year is not success. Most of these fish live 10-15 years in the wild, some eels as long as 30 years. I have found successful dead diets for eels but most never follow it, some have had volitan lions live as long 10 years in captivity, myself included, with a properly designed dead diet. Most of these other species are just too unpredictable and picky about what they choose to eat, to make real success from a dead only diet. There are obviously going to be outliers, but that's exactly what they are; 1 in a 1000.

Beware of photo op tanks and those making false claims. Beautifully photographed tanks and predators that will only live a few months. Gathering several notoriously difficult to feed predators in one place, all eating dead food, broadcast feeding the tank and every eats; just simply not going to happen. People posting pics of young adults or even juveniles and telling you they have had them for years. If you have any questions of what I've telling you, you can click my name and "find all threads" or "find all posts", and see the documentation for years. I started this journey after seeing the dismal survival rate of dwarf lions and started my 1st rescue tank more than a dozen years ago. My 1st lionfish was a volitan more than 30 years ago when everyone was feeding goldfish; he ate sushi grade fresh seafood and lived with me more than 10 years.

 
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lion king

lion king

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It may have to do more with foods that do not meet the dietary goals of the fish rather than dead vs alive.

A live food is complete nutrition, the species I am speaking of have demonstrated they do not live long eating the same diet as many other species. The species I am speaking of also mostly are not agreeable with accepting many dead foods that would be beneficial. I have mentioned healthy dead foods that i have had success with volitans, eels, and even a fuzzy; but most hobbyist refuse to include these foods. Like fresh seafood, not old expired frozen; like fatty fish, and avoiding krill and smelt or minnows packaged as silversides. It is also a chore in the long run because the predators after a while just refuse to eat, whether it be boredom or frustration, or there's still something missing nutritionally. I have stopped co-signing the "train your lion" way of thinking, it has demonstrated to me that it just doesn't work in the long run for 999 out of a 1000. I have still never found anyone "honestly" keeping any of these species as long as 2 years on a dead only diet.
 

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A live food is complete nutrition, the species I am speaking of have demonstrated they do not live long eating the same diet as many other species. The species I am speaking of also mostly are not agreeable with accepting many dead foods that would be beneficial. I have mentioned healthy dead foods that i have had success with volitans, eels, and even a fuzzy; but most hobbyist refuse to include these foods. Like fresh seafood, not old expired frozen; like fatty fish, and avoiding krill and smelt or minnows packaged as silversides. It is also a chore in the long run because the predators after a while just refuse to eat, whether it be boredom or frustration, or there's still something missing nutritionally. I have stopped co-signing the "train your lion" way of thinking, it has demonstrated to me that it just doesn't work in the long run for 999 out of a 1000. I have still never found anyone "honestly" keeping any of these species as long as 2 years on a dead only diet.

I definitely don't think it's easy getting them to eat frozen food as it doesn't stimulate their predation response quite like live food. However, it's hard to say that it's really a dead vs frozen issue since anecdotes can be rather messy. Those who may feed live may just have better care for the animal, have more experience, etc. This would be the "observation" stage where you can't draw conclusions but it appears you found a phenomena that may call for further investigation.
 
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lion king

lion king

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I definitely don't think it's easy getting them to eat frozen food as it doesn't stimulate their predation response quite like live food. However, it's hard to say that it's really a dead vs frozen issue since anecdotes can be rather messy. Those who may feed live may just have better care for the animal, have more experience, etc. This would be the "observation" stage where you can't draw conclusions but it appears you found a phenomena that may call for further investigation.

I find the debate interesting, as to those that do, I am still looking for someone to offer me examples of true success with the referenced species of a decade or near on a dead food diet. People call my info anecdotal or even question the safety of feeding live foods, yet still give no examples or offer dietary recommendation that has proved a decade of success. I again repeat, I have still never met anyone keeping these guys for as long as 2 years on a dead only diet. You can also find a ton of failed attempts at getting these species to eat dead food, a ton of calls for help as these species stopped eating. even after all of this, people are going to do what they are going to do; "that's ok, I'll just get another one".
 

ihateSpirorbids

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What live foods do you feed to your fish? I always thought fresh frozen seafood from the market is good enough, given you feed enough variety.
 
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lion king

lion king

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What live foods do you feed to your fish? I always thought fresh frozen seafood from the market is good enough, given you feed enough variety.

While there is an argument to be made for fresh human grade seafood, and most predators can thrive on these foods. I am speaking of a few species, and some like anglers, certain scorps, goblins, robins, and some dwarf and medium bodied lions; are still missing something. I'm not sure how many ways I can say these species are sensitive to high levels of thiaminese, and the necessity of a fatty fish. Some of these species will just never accept the necessary foods, if they do, then yes you can have success. Even when fed a proper, balanced dead diet; some of these species just stop eating after several months of a dead only diet. This out of the blue refusal of dead food, may be a response to the lack of hunting stimulation, maybe, who knows for sure. I am still waiting for evidence to the contrary, how many ways can I say, it is 1 in a 1000 that breaks the rules of what I am saying. Not every, not every; you may be the exception, but playing the odds. Chances are if you are dead set on feeding the species I'm talking of a dead only diet, they really are not going to live much more than a year max. People that have never kept these species, just can't understand how they can be different than any other fish, but they are.

You can click my name and "find all threads" to find info on feeding live and even recommended dead foods, and foods to stay away from. Short answer, the best live foods are ghost shrimp, guppies, and mollies.
 

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