Yellow tang and possible ich?

[royaleFork]

The key question is 'how did you quarantine it'

4 weeks in a 10 gallon with copper safe. Then 1 week with Prazi. I did not measure the copper as I did not have the tester, but I did measure the copper safe per gallon. This may have been the issue?

 

[royaleFork]

I meant to add as a backup in case it has to go back into QT. That was my mistake.

With the video posted the Tang looks to be mainly hanging out in one spot. Tangs are swimmers, they are known to never really stop swimming. That behavior could be an indication of stress. Whether it be a disease or aggression from the other fish.

He swims all over, I think he was a bit stressed from me being right up next to the glass with my phone trying to get a video.

 

[vetteguy53081]

4 weeks in a 10 gallon with copper safe. Then 1 week with Prazi. I did not measure the copper as I did not have the tester, but I did measure the copper safe per gallon. This may have been the issue?

Best done with a test kit but general rule is 1.45ml per gal of water. If you underdosed, will be an issue

 

[royaleFork]

Best done with a test kit but general rule is 1.45ml per gal of water. If you underdosed, will be an issue

I did 1.25 since that is what the bottle said (4ml per 5 gallon so 12.5ml for 10 gallons)

 

[MnFish1]

I did 1.25 since that is what the bottle said (4ml per 5 gallon so 12.5ml for 10 gallons)

So - a couple issues - there are areas on the tail that look like lymphocystis (sorry if I was not clear) - however the lesions inside the fins could be that - or Ich. Second - as to the copper dose - you really need to check daily levels - (unless you have measured the actual water volume in the tank). Third - the aggression/fin damage is clear - and may relate to the biota fish not responding normally to other breeds (since they are raised separately).

 

[Hyphnx]

@royaleFork

We are by no means trying to discourage you! We are simply trying to encourage you. This hobby is tough. There are ups and downs. Do you have a way to get your hands on a Copper Test? Maybe take a sample to your LFS and see if they can measure it?

 

[royaleFork]

1. Going to go Hyposalinity (using Jay's guide) for the ich (both quarantine tanks have inhabitants, got some coral pretty cheap so stuck it in one as a make shift frag tank and got a 2 spot tang in the other undergoing quarantine. I also have no inverts or coral in the tank, so I think I just need to monitor for ammonia from algae die off?).
2. Getting a copper tester (I can get one. The reason I didn't earlier is I am not sure how the copper levels drop in a tank with only PVC pipes in it, but I guess the tank size could be off enough?)
3. Upping the diet for the Lympho
4 Monitoring aggression, but I really see none. The tang hangs with the cardinal for a bit, grazes for a bit, then hangs out with the clowns for a bit (the chalk bass is too small to really do more than swim around the inside of the rock). Also worth re-pointing out everything in the tank is a juvenile. From my reading here, small clowns are sweet, grown clowns are monsters, but this may not be true in all situations?

I am wondering if the fin damage could have come from the rock? Maybe a burst from the powerhead at the wrong time (single mp40)? Looking for ideas here to make sure I can monitor the right thing and to make sure the fish makes it.

Future changes:
1. Quarantine with copper tester
2. I have an acclimation box coming sometime in the future (octo aquatics is make to order), can use that to help it if the damage does not improve.

 

[Hyphnx]

1. Going to go Hyposalinity (using Jay's guide) for the ich (both quarantine tanks have inhabitants, got some coral pretty cheap so stuck it in one as a make shift frag tank and got a 2 spot tang in the other undergoing quarantine. I also have no inverts or coral in the tank, so I think I just need to monitor for ammonia from algae die off?).
2. Getting a copper tester (I can get one. The reason I didn't earlier is I am not sure how the copper levels drop in a tank with only PVC pipes in it, but I guess the tank size could be off enough?)
3. Upping the diet for the Lympho
4 Monitoring aggression, but I really see none. The tang hangs with the cardinal for a bit, grazes for a bit, then hangs out with the clowns for a bit (the chalk bass is too small to really do more than swim around the inside of the rock). Also worth re-pointing out everything in the tank is a juvenile. From my reading here, small clowns are sweet, grown clowns are monsters, but this may not be true in all situations?

I am wondering if the fin damage could have come from the rock? Maybe a burst from the powerhead at the wrong time (single mp40)? Looking for ideas here to make sure I can monitor the right thing and to make sure the fish makes it.

Future changes:
1. Quarantine with copper tester
2. I have an acclimation box coming sometime in the future (octo aquatics is make to order), can use that to help it if the damage does not improve.

That is a great plan!! I really hope it all works out!!

 

[blecki]

The white spots on the dorsal fin look like injuries to me. They are very regular, always on the spine, very consistent with the fish smashing it's fin against the rocks. The smooth edge on the fins suggests that the damage is healing. I would assume the fin damage was caused by flashing when the fish was more heavily infected. You might be in that phase of the ich lifecycle where it mostly goes away for a while. The spots on the left front fin look more ich-ish. The fish could have been heavily infected previously and never manifested the spots.

A powerhead blasting it into the rocks isn't going to cause that much damage. And if it was aggression then the fact that the fins are healing suggests that they got over it. I just over the last two weeks dealt with aggression from an entire tank against a brand new scopas tang... it ended up with my sailfin getting shived and now they leave the scopas alone. I would honestly worry more about the yellow being mean than being a victim as far as aggression goes.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I did 1.25 since that is what the bottle said (4ml per 5 gallon so 12.5ml for 10 gallons)

Yes- underdosed and did not get proper treatment protocol

 

[MnFish1]

@royaleFork

We are by no means trying to discourage you! We are simply trying to encourage you. This hobby is tough. There are ups and downs. Do you have a way to get your hands on a Copper Test? Maybe take a sample to your LFS and see if they can measure it?

Curious - who was discouraging? A one time copper test from an LFS will not be helpful here IMHO. One needs daily copper testing. The hobby is not 'tough'. However - it's important to follow a protocol (whatever that is).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Tang was quarantined before adding, yes. The clowns are smaller than the tang and have shown no interest in nipping or doing anything but chill on the side of the tank except for their evening zoomies where the race around in circles. The chalk bass is very small and does everything it can to stay away from the tang (the tang, while small, is the biggest fish in the tank by far).

From what I can see - each of the white spots is directly over a fin ray - is that also what you see? If so, these are broken fin rays and not ich. That would line up with the fin damage.
Jay

 

[royaleFork]

From what I can see - each of the white spots is directly over a fin ray - is that also what you see? If so, these are broken fin rays and not ich. That would line up with the fin damage.
Jay

I think so? Unfortunately I stepped out for a bit so can't confirm for sure. I did get some closer shots that might help?

There is also this image of its tail that has some raised bumps?

But if that is the case, I can't figure out why the fins are damaged to begin with. The flashing theory earlier made sense even though I don't remember seeing it happen.

Also, would this cause white spots on its side fins (not great with fins terms). Just want to make sure I'm barking up the right tree.

Sorry the side photos aren't great, it hates the camera...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think so? Unfortunately I stepped out for a bit so can't confirm for sure. I did get some closer shots that might help?

There is also this image of its tail that has some raised bumps?

But if that is the case, I can't figure out why the fins are damaged to begin with. The flashing theory earlier made sense even though I don't remember seeing it happen.

Also, would this cause white spots on its side fins (not great with fins terms). Just want to make sure I'm barking up the right tree.

Sorry the side photos aren't great, it hates the camera...

That just doesn't look like ich to me.

However, I cannot account for THAT many broken fin rays. Also, the fin damage has begun to heal (the rounded edges).

I'm stumped.....

Jay

 

[Biota_Marine]

We're always happy to help out with our fish if anyone ever has any issues. If it was something like ich we typically suggest a H2O2 dip to provide some quick relief and our tang do incredibly well with that treatment. We do a hybrid TTM with H2O2 dips at our facility before all of our tang go out.

I also recommend Copper Power over copper safe for whatever reason I feel like it treats better and is more consistent but that may just be personal preference.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

We're always happy to help out with our fish if anyone ever has any issues. If it was something like ich we typically suggest a H2O2 dip to provide some quick relief and our tang do incredibly well with that treatment. We do a hybrid TTM with H2O2 dips at our facility before all of our tang go out.

I also recommend Copper Power over copper safe for whatever reason I feel like it treats better and is more consistent but that may just be personal preference.

From what I can tell (since they don't divulge their recipes) Copper Power and Coppersafe are essentially the same formulation. I've used Coppersafe since it was a Mardel product back in the early 1980's. Unless Fritz has changed the formulation, it should work as well. I haven't bought Fritz Coppersafe since 2022, but then, the product was the same as the old version....

Jay

 

[Biota_Marine]

From what I can tell (since they don't divulge their recipes) Copper Power and Coppersafe are essentially the same formulation. I've used Coppersafe since it was a Mardel product back in the early 1980's. Unless Fritz has changed the formulation, it should work as well. I haven't bought Fritz Coppersafe since 2022, but then, the product was the same as the old version....

Jay

I also think it's the same exact product, if there's any difference it's likely a binder change but we swapped to copper power long ago and never looked back so it's just personal preference.

 

[royaleFork]

That just doesn't look like ich to me.

However, I cannot account for THAT many broken fin rays. Also, the fin damage has begun to heal (the rounded edges).

I'm stumped.....

Jay

I just caught the little bugger aggressively scratching on a rock. Do you think this lends to @blecki 's theory of hurting itself by scratching at ich too hard? Have you seen this before?

Thank you for keeping up with the thread!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I just caught the little bugger aggressively scratching on a rock. Do you think this lends to @blecki 's theory of hurting itself by scratching at ich too hard? Have you seen this before?

Thank you for keeping up with the thread!

Possibly, but for a fish to scratch itself that severely, it must have a severe issue causing that.

Best done with a test kit but general rule is 1.45ml per gal of water. If you underdosed, will be an issue

I thought the Coppersafe dose is 5 ml per 4 gallons? That would be 1.25 ml per gallon.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Possibly, but for a fish to scratch itself that severely, it must have a severe issue causing that.


I thought the Coppersafe dose is 5 ml per 4 gallons? That would be 1.25 ml per gallon.

Jay

Mardel says 5ml per 4 g but at two different seminars, they stated 1.4-1.5 per gallon which would be .55 - .6 per 4 gallons.

To further confuse these numbers, see the post below from Brew12:

I want to put some info out which will hopefully clarify the large amount of confusion when using Mardel's Coppersafe.

If you look at the Fritz website they indicate that Coppersafe maintains a total copper of 0.15ppm to 0.2ppm. This is not correct. Not only is this not the recommended dosage for chelated copper but it isn't what their recommended dosing achieves.
They recommend dosing at 5ml per 4 gallons. This works out to 1.16ppm of copper. The problem? Chelated copper needs to be maintained between 1.5ppm and 2ppm to be therapeutic.
To make this even more challenging, the API test kit tends to read on the high side, making the problem even worse.

Have I confused you enough yet? Sorry. Can't help it.

So here is my best recommendation.

Actual dosing should be 1.6mL/gallon to 2.1mL/gallon. I recommend adding 1.6mL of coppersafe to 1 gallon of salt water and taking a test with your API kit. Compare this to your chart and try to think of this color as 1.5ppm, or the minimum recommended level. Then dose another 0.5mL Coppersafe into that gallon and take another test. Try to remember this shade as proper for 2ppm, or the highest level you want.

For slowly raising copper levels as is appropriate for Ich on all but the most sensitive fish, I recommend dosing 0.3mL/gallon every morning and evening for 3 days. This should get you to 1.8mL/gallon at the end for a concentration of 1.7ppm. Another 0.3mL/gallon dose will put you right at the top end if you want to add it.