Zero phosphates stalling cycling process?

[SuncrestReef]

I posted this message on my build thread, but thought perhaps it might get more traction in this forum:

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Update on my cycling process: It's been 23 days since I added Dr. Tim's bacteria and started dosing with ammonium chloride as prescribed by Dr. Tim. The ammonia is consumed within 24 hours, but the nitrites have been high since the first few days into the process. I've done several water changes as recommended to keep nitrites low, but I still haven't seen any improvement in nitrites being converted to nitrates. It seems the bacteria responsible for converting nitrite to nitrate is not populating.

When I first set up the tank, I knew that the dry Pukani rock was known to leach phosphates, so I started running my GFO reactor to lower phosphates. This worked well as the phosphates dropped from over 1 ppm to 0.1 ppm. Once phosphates were low I started the cycling process. However, I recently converted my ATO into a refugium and added chaeto, and the chaeto has been growing like crazy. It tripled in size within 1 week. But today I tested for phosphates again and discovered it was at 0 (using a Hanna ULR tester). After a bit of research I found some people saying zero phosphates can stall the cycling process since the nitrifying bacteria needs some phosphates to be able to multiply. I'm thinking I may have over-compensated for the phosphates by running both GFO and growing chaeto.

For now, I'm shutting down the GFO reactor but will leave the chaeto in place, and I'll start testing phosphates again on a daily basis to see if I can get some measurable phosphates. Hopefully this will get the bacteria multiplying so the cycling process can complete.

Anyone run into this issue before when cycling?

 

[Lasse]

Its can happens that the cycle stalling for a prolonged period in some aquaria. If you dosing NH3/NH4 still - stop that. There is some reports that free NH3/NH4 can hinder the growth of the nitrification cycle - stage 2 (NO2->NO3) I´m not sure that´s true but to be on the safe road - stop dosing NH3/NH4. If you do not dose nitrification bacteria every day - do that.

And finally - the delicate question - can zero PO4 stall the second stage? I think so. Personally - I never fight PO4 during the first 1 - 2 months - Instead, I want some PO4 to start the aquarium's biological life as soon as possible - including microalgae and bacteria. I do not use any "chemical way" of starting the cycle (read adding NH4) or let some food rotten (read shrimp method). Instead I use one hardy fish that I feed very sparsely for the first 3 weeks and I ad a large clean up crew the second to fifth day. I can write tons about this but my basic believe is that an aquarium is a biological piece of system - not a chemical.

However - this is another discussion and I will take that in an own thread sooner or later. If I was in your situation - what should I do? I would ad nitrification bacteria every day, I would stop all system removing PO4, I would probably ad some PO4 or sludge from an existing aquarium. One useful trick is to introduce a little foam filter (like the ones popular in the fresh water world) for a while. It will for a very good nitrification filter and you can take it away later on if you want. Be sure that it has a very good flow (lot of oxygen). If you do not have access to nitrification bacteria - you can take sludge from an existing aquarium - fresh or salt water does not matter) mix with salt water and put it in refrigerator. Ad some of it every day to your aquarium.

If you do not have access to this either - take some soil (unfertilized) from a forest (upper 10 cm layer) and dilute in water. Filter it through a coffee filter and put the filtrate in the refrigerator. Put some of it into the aquarium every day. Last time when a stalling cycle happens for me (back in 1978 ) I solved the problem with this trick. The NO2 was very high in the morning - 8 hours after the first adding of this soil water - it was totally gone.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[EmptyWallet]

In mine and others experience it takes 6 weeks for the nitrites to come right down when cycling. I'd stop the ammonium chloride now too let the bacteria catch up (you don't need to feed the bacteria daily, or even weekly) and don't worry about phosphates until later on.

 

[Lasse]

In mine and others experience it takes 6 weeks for the nitrites to come right down when cycling. I'd stop the ammonium chloride now too let the bacteria catch up (you don't need to feed the bacteria daily, or even weekly) and don't worry about phosphates until later on.

Its not my experiences - doing the right way - it will take around three weeks. I normally cycle my aquariums without reading any rise (or a very low rise) in NO2 during the process. FW or SW - does not matter. SW is easier - cause NO2 is not toxic in SW.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[EmptyWallet]

well in the experience of some following the Dr Tims fishless cycling method. Maybe One and Only is a bit light on the nitrobactors? The advice is to be patient as opposed to trying to be too advanced or clever, over thinking it...

 

[SuncrestReef]

Thank you all.

 

[LMDAVE]

Just curious how this worked out for you? I was starting my cycle and also noticed my pho’s dropped to 0.0, so took my gfo offline. But Chaeto is still in the refugium

 

[SuncrestReef]

Just curious how this worked out for you? I was starting my cycle and also noticed my pho’s dropped to 0.0, so took my gfo offline. But Chaeto is still in the refugium

After my post on May 12, 2018 when PO4 was at zero, I turned off the GFO reactor but left the chaeto growing in the refugium. The next day PO4 was up to 0.04 ppm and a few days later it topped out at 0.07 ppm. On May 20 I finally started seeing a decrease in nitrites and by May 26 the cycling was complete. I truly believe the cycling was stalled by the lack of PO4.

Hope this helps you.

 

[sfin52]

Its can happens that the cycle stalling for a prolonged period in some aquaria. If you dosing NH3/NH4 still - stop that. There is some reports that free NH3/NH4 can hinder the growth of the nitrification cycle - stage 2 (NO2->NO3) I´m not sure that´s true but to be on the safe road - stop dosing NH3/NH4. If you do not dose nitrification bacteria every day - do that.

And finally - the delicate question - can zero PO4 stall the second stage? I think so. Personally - I never fight PO4 during the first 1 - 2 months - Instead, I want some PO4 to start the aquarium's biological life as soon as possible - including microalgae and bacteria. I do not use any "chemical way" of starting the cycle (read adding NH4) or let some food rotten (read shrimp method). Instead I use one hardy fish that I feed very sparsely for the first 3 weeks and I ad a large clean up crew the second to fifth day. I can write tons about this but my basic believe is that an aquarium is a biological piece of system - not a chemical.

However - this is another discussion and I will take that in an own thread sooner or later. If I was in your situation - what should I do? I would ad nitrification bacteria every day, I would stop all system removing PO4, I would probably ad some PO4 or sludge from an existing aquarium. One useful trick is to introduce a little foam filter (like the ones popular in the fresh water world) for a while. It will for a very good nitrification filter and you can take it away later on if you want. Be sure that it has a very good flow (lot of oxygen). If you do not have access to nitrification bacteria - you can take sludge from an existing aquarium - fresh or salt water does not matter) mix with salt water and put it in refrigerator. Ad some of it every day to your aquarium.

If you do not have access to this either - take some soil (unfertilized) from a forest (upper 10 cm layer) and dilute in water. Filter it through a coffee filter and put the filtrate in the refrigerator. Put some of it into the aquarium every day. Last time when a stalling cycle happens for me (back in 1978 ) I solved the problem with this trick. The NO2 was very high in the morning - 8 hours after the first adding of this soil water - it was totally gone.

Sincerely Lasse

Nice write up

 

[Lasse]

Nice write up

Thank you very much.

Finally I got my thumb out of my ..... (- a Swedish way of expressing yourself when you speak the language of the streets) and translated my Swedish article of 15 important steps when you start a saltwater aquarium – you can find it here


Sincerely Lasse