2-Part dosing scheme

surfn

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Ok,

So basically, the theory behind the 2-part dosing system is really easy, you are only adding pure concentrated chemicals to your tank, so you know exactly what is going into your tank.

The easy way to start this out, and most people that have been into the hobby for a while should already be past this point...is to use this calculator and every once in a while put a measured amount of baking soda or calcium chloride into your tank to keep your levels up.
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

i used to use plain old baking soda you find in the grocery store. to keep my calcium up, i used the kents turbo calcium (dry kind). i would just mix up a measured amount, using that calculator, with my top off water every couple of days.

when it gets to the point you are having to add baking soda more than once every couple of days...you need to invent in a dosing pump.

if you have only a mild consumption of alk and calcium, i would recomend possibly starting out with a dosing pump and kalk mixed into your top off water. the only reason i dont like this is b/c it will require keeping a large resevoir, like a brute trashcan close by. this should maintain your alk levels and keep your top off water up, and you'll just need to use that calculator and add some calcium once a week or so.

i went straight to the 2 part dosing system, b/c you can keep very concentrated solutions in small batches that last a long time. the downside, is you'll need another dosing pump.

if you have a high demand, then you'll have to get 2 dosing pumps. the litermeter 3 comes with only 1 dosing pump, but you can buy an additional one. the litermeter is expensive, but its so worth it, you set it, and then forget basically and never have to mess with it. it needs to be recalibrated bi-annually i think, and then replace the tubing once a year.

this article explains the whole thing except the dosing pumps themselves, the theory is super easy.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

I use recipe #1. and you can buy the stuff in bulk if you have a good way of storing it, i didnt..so i just got the prepackaged portions from one of our sponsors.
http://www.twopartsolution.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=7

if you want to do this, i would first recomend getting the litermeter dosing pump. if you are like me, and on a budget, get the initial system, which comes with only one pump, and then set it up to do your alk, and get that completely stable. just use the calculator and mix up a desired amount of calcium once a week and put it in with your top off water to keep the calcium up in the mean time.

once you are comfortable with it dosing just the alk part, go ahead and buy another pump for it, and then add your calcium part.

i just filled up my 1g calcium and alk solutions yesterday, and it took 2 months to go through them! and i have a heavy sps load in my 65g system.

the only other thing, is you'll need test kits for alk, calcium, magnesium. and you'll need some extra magnesium/epsom salts from that sponsor, b/c it takes quite a bit to get your magnesium levels up initially before you start the system.

here is my set up, its by no means "neat", b/c I'll be moving this summer again, so i figure I'll wait to make it neat on the next system.
-you can see the litermeter up on top of the tank, there is a second pump right behind it.
-at the bottom, is the concentrated solutions with the tubing going into them.
-on the left, the tubing goes over the sump and hangs over the water and drips in every now and then to keep the levels stable.
dosing%20scheme.JPG




let me know if you have any questions...the chemistry part may look complicated at first, but its really quite simple b/c all you need to do is test your levels, and raise the dosing in accordance with it.

my litermeter is set up to dose 0.08L/day of each part, they are supposed to be used in equal amounts to get things completely stable.
 

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Al, you're freaking awesome....thank you SO much for putting all that info. in one spot. Although i have read the majority of that before, that was clear and concise and made it a lot more clear. Thanks for taking the time to put all that in writing and sharing that.

Adam
 
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surfn

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Why do they supply both recipies in their kits? I would have thought that they would do 1 or the other.

ok, so the question basically pertains to whats the difference b/w recipe#1 and recipe#2.

basically, recipe#1 is more concentrated, and assumes you can get ahold of ALL of the chemicals.
-you'll also need to "bake" the baking soda to drive off dissolved gases and water.

recipe#2 is less concentrated, so you'll go through more.

then the only other difference is the difference in how you dose magnesium, which IMO you can do whatever you want with that.

if you get your pre-packaged magnesium stuff from Two-Parts, its already pre-mixed with epsom salts which is your 4th ingredient.

some people can't find the magnesium supplement, so they just use the espsom salts...but that creates an imbalance in the sulfates as described in that article.

**NOTE** I see Randy Holmes just made an update to the article earlier this month:
Editors note (3/10/07): Note, the manufacturer of MAG flake has alerted us that they very strongly recommend against using this product in reef aquaria. While many reef aquarists have successfully used the product, the manufacturer does not claim to be able to provide this product at suitable quality in the future.

I'll look into this, but it should not effect the way you do your dosing for the calcium and alk parts.

I don't recomend using BioMagnesium though, its not very concentrated so you'll go through alot. I'm sure there are other outlets to get pure magnesium salts. It will probably be a good idea to ask the TwoParts company to see where they will buy their magnesium stuff in the future based on this comment from the manufacturer. I know our local club bought pure lab grade magnesium salts from some company a while back, really wish I had gotten in on that.

Its been a while since I've read that article in depth, so correct me if I missed anything. I know I didn't go into detail, but I dont really think you need alot of the chemical details about the different stuff you can use and ways to use it.

Just go with recipe #1, and get your pre-mixed magnesium/epsom salts from Two-Parts and you can't go wrong.
 
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oh yeah, the part with "baking" the baking soda is interesting the first time you do it.

i made a HUGE mess. after you take it out of the oven its like dust, and can get airborne VERY easily if you stir it up. so take care when putting it into the water. i got a nose bleed the first time i did it, and always have sneezing fits every time i do this.

baking soda in pure form is caustic!! so it will tingle if it gets on an open cut, or exposed to mucos membranes (like inside your nose).

btw...i do this on my stove b/c i take 1g of RO/DI and put it in a pot and warm it up. its basically the only way to get the stuff to completely dissolve easy, b/c its a super saturated solution essentially. I do this for the calcium part also. just dont boil the water, it only needs to be luke warm.
 
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ok, as far as the cost goes...here is how it broke down for me:

(exact prices depend on the place you get it from, I used Premium Aquatics)
Litermeter3 main module w/ dosing pump: $300
Litermeter3 remote pump module: $160
Extra tubing laying around from RO/DI: free
2 containers (1g each): ~$12
12g kit of two-part solution: $40 (should last a year for me)
Tubing replacement kit for litermeter3 pump: $15x2=$30 (once a year)

First year initial cost: $542

so after the initial cost of the main module and pumps, and assuming you can still get the prepackaged two-part solution, my annual costs for dosing would be $70/yr.

and actually, if you buy all the ingredients in bulk, locally (so you dont have to pay for shipping), it would actually come out as much less. i.e. you are paying a little extra to have it pre-portioned and packaged from Two-Part Solutions.

also, if you dont know already, the reason for the high cost on the LM3 is b/c of the computer program that operates it. it doses a couple milliliters every 15min or so all day long, until it gets to that number you set it at over the course of a day. that way you aren't having your levels swing by dosing all at once, once a day.

i just looked at the manual, and as far as pump maintanance. it will beep at you once the pump has run for 300hrs. every time the pump doses, it only runs for a couple of seconds, if that..then it shuts off. i think it turns on maybe a 12-24 times a day (really i have no idea, dont have the patience to sit and watch it dose all day..lol)
i've been running mine since july, so i gather i should only have to replace the pump tubing once a year, and will do so even if it doesn't beep at me for reaching that 300hr limit.

then they recomend you recalibrate the pump every now and then (every couple of months, but idealy after each time you fill up your two-part solutions), as the plastic tubing does wear out and change the pumping rates. you can probably do this 2 times a year.

so this will obviously depend on your alk/calcium demand, and/or you decide to use a pump for kalk and freshwater top off, it will run more much frequently than the pumps for the 2-part scheme.

you can cost compare yourself based on what calcium reactor/kalk stirrer/nilsen reactor/pH monitor/solenoid system you are looking at...but IMO theres alot less to go wrong with 2-part.

you know EXACTLY (chemical wise) what is going into your tank, and when, which is on a fixed interval...and not dependant on a controller monitoring tank pH levels, type of media, pressure of CO2 remaining in the tank etc.
 
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revhtree

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MY GOSH MAN!! I thought it would be cheaper than a reactor but I guess not! LOL!
 
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MY GOSH MAN!! I thought it would be cheaper than a reactor but I guess not! LOL!

the cost of the LM3 is big, but i've seen certain branned calcium reactors go for more $$$.

plus, thats just the calcium reactor, you still need your CO2 cylinder, and solenoid. then you need a pH monitoring device and some way of dosing Alk into your tank to keep your pH and alk up...and there are multiple methods of doing this. All of the equipment adds up.
 
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a cheap calcium reactor (smallest GEO version on PA): $300
solenoid/gauges: $100+
CO2 cylinder: $50-$100 depending on the size
media: ??

pH monitor: $75 for a cheap one OR
AquaController Jr.: $225
+ pH probe for controller: $45

cheap DIY kalk dosing: $50 or so OR
cheap kalk reactor/nilsen reactor: $200+


smallest Deltec calcium reactor (not including CO2 tank and solenoid): $419
smallest Deltec kalk stirrer: $419
.......then you need to go out and buy all the stuff to control it if you dont have it already.
 

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True true.....

I wasnt thinking straight cause I got a great deal from my friend.

I got a reactor, full co2 bottle, full media, pump, bubble counter..basically he had the whole system running without a controller. I got it all for $250.

New ya reactors would be more for sure.
 
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True true.....

I wasnt thinking straight cause I got a great deal from my friend.

I got a reactor, full co2 bottle, full media, pump, bubble counter..basically he had the whole system running without a controller. I got it all for $250.

New ya reactors would be more for sure.


$250 is a great deal!! what are you doing to do for your alk demand to offset your calcium reactor?

btw...i'm not saying either system is better than the other...i'm just trying to debunk the myth that calcium reactors are cheaper. i think its funny some people say they are cheaper, but then go out and put down $1000 or more bucks on a calcium reactor, kalk stirrer, and controllers and monitors for the equipment.

sometimes i think people just like to tinker with all of the fancy equipment and show it off, so thats why they say its "better" lol ;)
 

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I am just going to use a auto top off to add the kalk water.
 

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sometimes i think people just like to tinker with all of the fancy equipment and show it off, so thats why they say its "better" lol ;)

BINGO! If I could afford to dose two part I would but it just wasnt economical on my system. Plus there was a local guy who sold me his Geo 618, 20lb CO2 tank, two full bags of Schuran media, Regulator, and Solenoid for $325 so it was to hard to pass up (only thing I had to buy was an extra pH controller to go inside the unit - cant use the AC Jr. for that because the Jr. only allows for one pH probe which I use in the tank).
 
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I am just going to use a auto top off to add the kalk water.

i dont trust auto top offs...unless its the osmolator. ;)

i guess you can just put a power head on a timer? i think thats what most people do and just fill up a large trash can and mix with kalk. i dont like that method much...and dont like kalk. hehe

i guess the biggest reason i like dosing 2-part, is the simplicity. the way i see it with a calcium reactor, if i want to do it *right*, you gota get a kalk stirrer/nilsen reactor, probes, etc. etc. etc. it just seems like theres so much equipment.

and every time i add a new piece of equipment to my tank...i'm like.."great, another piece of equipment that can go wrong at the worst possible time". lol
 

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Let me just update this.. I sold my CR to buy the Litermeter III. Surf is 100% right with dosing 2 part " Simplicity" . Now I got it running for almost2 weeks and wow I have a stable parameters and the one thing I hate with CR is the tweaking part ! and continously cleaning the pump out. 3 weeks ago my pump died on the CR ( which I didn't know) I saw some of my sps STN on the base and when I checked my parameters Ca was up to 520 , ALk was 7 and Ph went down as well to 7.8.Now after the fragging fest on my tank I have a stable parameters and yes it is Simplicity and my corals are happier....


AL Thanks bro for the help 3 weeks ago... I finally got everything under control now im running 215 - .23 :)
 

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GREAT INFO AL!! Thanks, i havent yet recieved the overall info on the topic and now finally have. I will be constructing some type of simple setup like yours in the summer when i move....:)

Thanks!
 
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Let me just update this.. I sold my CR to buy the Litermeter III. Surf is 100% right with dosing 2 part " Simplicity" . Now I got it running for almost2 weeks and wow I have a stable parameters and the one thing I hate with CR is the tweaking part ! and continously cleaning the pump out. 3 weeks ago my pump died on the CR ( which I didn't know) I saw some of my sps STN on the base and when I checked my parameters Ca was up to 520 , ALk was 7 and Ph went down as well to 7.8.Now after the fragging fest on my tank I have a stable parameters and yes it is Simplicity and my corals are happier....


AL Thanks bro for the help 3 weeks ago... I finally got everything under control now im running 215 - .23 :)



lol what? you arent gonna tell everyone the WHOLE story of all the frantic PM's you were sending me. ;) hehe

one thing to point out, is to make sure you keep up on your water changes. this may be VERY important in the 2-part scheme.

with the calcium reactor, you are adding rich elements that are in your media.

i *may* have a strontium (or some other element) depletion cuasing my lps to die. i'm terrible at keeping up with water changes. but i am dosing strontium now and things seem to be a little better.
 

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lol what? you arent gonna tell everyone the WHOLE story of all the frantic PM's you were sending me. ;) hehe


Note dont try to install the Litermeter III on the weekdays and during 10 at night:hammer: .. Al was a big help to me that night. I was worried about my sps and had to install it ASAP and I know AL posted this thread so I Pm'ed him and yeah he help me alot but the the thing was I took the next day off to make sure its running properly :hammer:
 
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Whats your WC schedule Al?

schedule? lol what schedule?

see, i never did regular water changes, b/c i ALWAYS have zero phosphates, and zero nitrates. i honestly cant even remember the last time my nitrates were not zero in the past 3 years.

and i only have a very small amount of macro algae, shoot, i have TONS of trouble keeping chaeto in my fuge alive....

so due to my lack of water changes, i'm thinking my corals have sucked up all the trace nutrients normally included with new salt in water changes..
 

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