A discussion on immunity

[alanbetiger]

If 'dirty conditions' were so prevelent 'back in the day' why didn't more people habe the longevity of your uncle and mother? They are still outliers, which speaks more to genetics than to exposure to germs.

If your personal immunity was more the 'norm' why did they give out an attendence award? Shouldn't perfect attendence have been commonplace according to your argument?

As far as allergies in kids today vs in the past there are numerous reasons, more than soley lack of exposure to germs at play. For one think more is known about allergies and how they present themselves in kids, from eczema, inflammation, and minor to serious digestive issues. Another thing, it is more socially acceptable to have allergies. Also, food packed in bph plastic, increased hormones and genetically altered foods, even how agri-giants have monicultured crops willall also be factors.

Agreed.
In my OPINION it's too simplistic to say a "dirty" environment was all that is needed for superior immunity. Every single person from the 1950's, 1800's, 1700's etc would of lived forever. Every one lived in dirty/contaminated environments, ate organic food, and worked hard for a living. What was the average life expectancy in the 1800's?!? Modern medicine has helped us develop many ailments. How many people on this forum should still be alive without modern medicine? I know I should be dead. At 12 I was stung by a bee. Didn't have an allergic reaction or anything like that. But an inflammatory response is a normal response with stings. What was different with me is that my body decided to send all that inflammation to my kidneys and I developed life threatening Nerphrotic Syndrome. Again not an allergy. I was treated and a year later everything was resolved. If I had been born 50 years early I would of died. I'm not and my wife gave birth earlier this year. My 6 month old daughter was born 1 month early and spent 10 days on a respirator. She should be dead. Is that because of my inferior genes that nature tried to cull when I was 12?!? Who knows...but ask friends and family and see who all would still be alive after puberty if it weren't for modern medicine...

 

[Paul B]

If 'dirty conditions' were so prevelent 'back in the day' why didn't more people have the longevity of your uncle and mother? They are still outliers, which speaks more to genetics than to exposure to germs.

Most people in those days died of cancer or heart attacks like my dad who was never sick but died suddenly of a heart attack at age 47. He was not sick, I was told he may have been born with a weak spot on his aorta. My Wife's dad also died of the same thing at the same age. It was not an infection. Most of the people I have known in my 60+ years of living died from either cancer, mostly Leukemia, heart attacks or accidents, not infections which this thread is about. I really only know of one person who died of an infection, tetanus and that was in about 1918. It was my Uncle who got run over by a horse and carriage and tetanus shots were not yet available.
Of course I also lost many friends in Viet Nam but they don't count in this thread.
I know no one who had an allergy to anything when I was growing up and certainly no one died from them. My son N law has severe allergies and if he even looks at a peanut, we have to call an ambulance which has happened a few times. My Grand Daughter is the same way.

If your personal immunity was more the 'norm' why did they give out an attendence award? Shouldn't perfect attendence have been commonplace according to your argument?

Yes it should. But people cut school for different reasons, maybe they went fishing, I don't know. One of my closest friends hardly ever went to school and dropped out of high school, but not because he was sick.
He was just lazy.

Fish in our tanks now get sick much more often than they do in the sea because of things like quarantining and the wrong food. Mostly a combination of the two. I have been diving almost fifty years and I don't ever remember seeing a sick fish on a reef except from accidents or fights. Fish in the sea have immunity to almost everything and that is lacking in many tanks due to a lack of bacteria in the fishes diet and in their water. Fish in a tank get parasites for the same thing, a lack of parasite exposure in captivity. The majority of fish posts are about sick fish. I believe captive fish should never get sick. Mine don't and I am not that smart or lucky.
It's common sense and comes from spending time with fish in the sea. That is where you learn about them, not on line. Fish in the sea are surrounded by bacteria and parasites. They are not only surrounded by them but they eat parasites and bacteria hundreds of times a day in their diet, yet they don't get sick.
As soon as we collect that same fish and put it in a tank, most of the time they get some sort of infection as you can see right now if you go in the disease forum of this or any fish forum. Why is that?
It seems from reading these forums that fish are very delicate creatures. They are not.
Another thing missing in a captive fishes diet is fish oil which they get in the sea with every meal.
These things are extremely easy to remedy and our fish can be disease free forever but many people resist the steps to do it and would rather spend all sorts of time and money on hospital tanks and medications. If our fish don't live to their normal life span, we failed.
Some of my fish are 26 years old, and like all my fish have never been quarantined or medicated. I just acclimate them for a few minutes and throw them in, parasites and all. Why can I do that? Think about it.
And please don't come up with that luck or Russian Roulette thing as I can't even speak Russian but I did date a Russian girl once.

 

[Paul B]

Alan, I didn't say a dirty environment, my tank is not dirty. I said a tank with the proper bacteria and parasites like the fish would be exposed to in the sea. Fish also don't get stung by bees and immunity would not help with that just like they have no immunity from fish hooks, sea gulls, larger fish, seals, orcas, StarKist, and us. I had a red snapper for dinner last night with linguini and clams.
People in the 1700s and earlier were much more immune than we are to "infections" from bacteria. Our POWs in Viet Nam lived for years on a diet of dirty bugs and rice. I am sure they didn't wash their food. They died from the beatings, malnutrition and bullets. Much before that there was no sanitation, no hand washing, no food washing and people did just fine. They died from all sorts of other things but not from eating bacteria which people have been eating for 3 million years. Some Egyptian Pharos lived into their 90s because they did not get crushed while building pyramids or wore out all their joints carrying stones to the point where they couldn't walk to the corner for a glass of milk. They also didn't have to run after Moses through the dead sea or deal with the locusts and frogs. Poor people who couldn't work, also couldn't get food so they starved. They got sun stroke from working outside 18 hours in 100 degree temperatures. I am sure they got skin cancer as well. But they didn't die from eating bacteria on their food.
I am saying that we are not doing our fish any favors by keeping them away from bacteria and parasites. Read the disease threads.
Anybody on here have a tank full of quarantined fish some of which are 25 years old and still spawning? All your paired fish should be spawning and living to their full lifespan never having to be sick or medicated.
Is that a bad thing to strive for or am I just nuts.

 

[alanbetiger]

Paul,
I think Europeans living during The Black Plague would disagree about their immunity to bacteria. I by no means am an advocate on living in a sterile environment. We have two dogs and cat and my six month old daughter. regularly gets a tongue in the mouth from one of them.
Definitely don't think you're nuts to strive for less disease in our tanks. I think we both would agree that Malnutrition and Stress are huge components of the disease the average aquarist sees. I wholeheartedly think the lack of an appropriate diet is the number one issue with most fish. Then add in a the stress of capture. Transporting to holding facilities, flown around the world, and then waiting at a store or distributor before coming to us. In those fish decreasing the risk of infections/parasites is probably a good idea. They already feel like crap. But much much more getting them on an appropriate diet would be far better. Which you personally excel at.
In my mind I'm thinking of all the viral videos of starving street dogs covered in mange and skin infections. You get them in a stress-free environment with great nutrition and they are transformed in a new dog. Completely unrecognizable to the mangey dog. They aren't healthier because of being exposed to those parasites or the bacteria on contaminated food they ate on the street. They are healthier because of the overall better nutrition in a low stress environment.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Played the Black Plague card?
I raise you Small pox and native americans.

 

[Paul B]

Alan, the proper diet and immunity go hand and hand (or fin and fin) A fish will never have immunity without the proper diet which I feel is lacking in almost al tanks. Also, the most stress a fish goes through is 72 days in quarantine and many fish do not make it. Many people feel they have to feed something that comes in a package with a pretty fish on the cover. A fish market can supply our fish with whatever they need for practically free but it takes more effort. I myself use a large portion of my fish food as commercially prepared food but I make sure that at every meal, my fish get live bacteria in the form of live worms or clams.
As for plague, that came from fleas on rats and the Europeans had no immunity from that. But the ones that did survive were immune to it and that is why we have any Europeans left, myself one of them.
That is also the reason the native Americans died when Europeans came here bringing Smallpox. They had no immunity but the Europeans did have some immunity to it and they probably would have total immunity if they didn't subsist on dried pork, M&Ms and rum on their two month journey in a porous ship filled with rats and drank water from rotten wooden casks sealed with tar while listening to RAP music.

 

[justingraham]

Played the Black Plague card?
I raise you Small pox and native americans.

I raise u the potatoe famine

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I raise u the potatoe famine

They inbred the potatoes.

 

[Paul B]

I rarely feed my fish potatoes' but I have given them bananas. I don't remember a banana plague

 

[Katrina71]

Played the Black Plague card?
I raise you Small pox and native americans.

Got a blanket I can borrow?

 

[eatbreakfast]

I have been diving almost fifty years and I don't ever remember seeing a sick fish on a reef except from accidents or fights.

Sick animals are less frequently seen in wild animals because parasite density isn't as high in the wild as it is in captivity, but predator pressure and competition for resources are much higher, quickly eliminating sick specimens.

Fish in the sea are surrounded by bacteria and parasites.

Parasite density is actually quite low in the wild, especially in comparison to fish tanks.

The majority of fish posts are about sick fish.

But that in no way means that the majority of fish are getting sick. Most people are moved to action, or in these cases to post in a forum, when things go wrong, not when things go right.

Most people in those days died of cancer or heart attacks ....

So do most people today.

Fish in our tanks now get sick much more often than they do in the sea because of things like quarantining and the wrong food.

No, they get sick because of parasites and pathogens. A fish can't get ich or marine velvet if it is not exposed to it.

As soon as we collect that same fish and put it in a tank, most of the time they get some sort of infection as you can see right now if you go in the disease forum of this or any fish forum.

Again, people are more likely to post when there is a problem or concern rather than when things are going well.

People in the 1700s and earlier were much more immune than we are to "infections" from bacteria. Our POWs in Viet Nam lived for years on a diet of dirty bugs and rice. I am sure they didn't wash their food.

Actually secondary infections were very problematic before antibiotics and were a huge contributing factor to early deaths.

Much before that there was no sanitation, no hand washing, no food washing and people did just fine.

History has shown that cultures with better hygiene and that practiced hand-washing had longer lives and lower premature mortality.

Also, the most stress a fish goes through is 72 days in quarantine and many fish do not make it.

It doesn't have to be a stressful environment. It can be calm, peaceful, have access to good foods, along with plenty of cover to feel comfortable.

More fish make it through a proper qt than not.

A fish market can supply our fish with whatever they need for practically free but it takes more effort. I myself use a large portion of my fish food as commercially prepared food but I make sure that at every meal, my fish get live bacteria in the form of live worms or clams.

There is no reason that a good diet can't be utilized in qt.

As for plague, that came from fleas on rats and the Europeans had no immunity from that. But the ones that did survive were immune to it and that is why we have any Europeans left, myself one of them.
.

Bubonic plague still exists, and it's not large-scale immunity, but rather cleaner conditions and better antibiotics are credited by experts on the subject as to why it is not a more significant problem today.

 

[Humblefish]

^^ +1 @eatbreakfast nailed it

 

[Paul B]

Wow, that took you a long time to come up with all that with the quoting and all that. I actually agree with "some" of it.
Now show me a tank of 25 year old quarantined, spawning fish that have never been sick.
I don't mean plague.

Hey Bob, I wondered when you would come back here.
Now lets find those fish I spoke of. ;Smuggrin

 

[blkhwkz]

Wow, that took you a long time to come up with all that with the quoting and all that. I actually agree with "some" of it.
Now show me a tank of 25 year old non quarantined, spawning fish that have never been sick.
I don't mean plague.

Hey Bob, I wondered when you would come back here.
Now lets find those fish I spoke of. ;Smuggrin

I seem to recall you added in some purple queen anthias recently that didn't last to long. None of that, they only die from old age or jumping you always say.

 

[Humblefish]

Wow, that took you a long time to come up with all that with the quoting and all that. I actually agree with "some" of it.
Now show me a tank of 25 year old non quarantined, spawning fish that have never been sick.
I don't mean plague.

Hey Bob, I wondered when you would come back here.
Now lets find those fish I spoke of. ;Smuggrin

Unless QT'ing somehow makes a fish sterile ... whether or not it spawns in captivity has more to do with the care fish receive once placed in a DT environment. Getting them into "breeding condition" as you like to put it.

QT'ing just ensures the fish will live long enough to reach breeding age. It has nothing to do with whether or not spawning actually occurs. So as you can see, our methods are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they compliment one another. Mine helps the fish not die prematurely due to disease so spawning can occur; yours makes them feel frisky enough to wanna do it. In a way Paul, you're like a Love Doctor.

 

[Paul B]

I seem to recall you added in some purple queen anthias recently that didn't last to long. None of that, they only die from old age or jumping you always say.

You are correct about that. But I normally say that if a fish lives a couple of weeks, they live forever. 2 purple queens jumped out that I know of, and 2 disappeared, I have 2 left. None of them got sick or silly ich, they probably starved just as my shrimpfish did. Some fish just won't live in a tank unless you want to hatch brine shrimp 5 times a day. But as you know, I am talking about fish getting sick. I also can't keep banded pipefish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish or whale sharks, but not because of parasites as my fish are and always have been immune. But you are correct, I failed with those fish.

Humble, I love your thoughts on this and I like to be called a "Love Doctor". Me and Humble have a fish love relationship and we always try to give the best advice to fish nerds even if it is totally opposite.
I believe, as you know that if a fish is paired and not spawning, it is not healthy. No way, no how as fish in the sea are always pregnant, especially if they know a good love doctor. I also believe that unless a fish dies of old age it was not either eating correctly, stressed or heard Rap music as fish and us people always want to die of old age unless we are bored.
All very healthy, paired fish will spawn, they just can't help themselves.
Also, the proper diet for me is totally different for you. I believe that the correct diet will contain live bacteria. Not frozen, semi comatose, artificially induced, boring, bacteria, but live bacteria doing the Macarana. I did post at the beginning of this thread all the new studies that show that fish need live bacteria to remain immune. Don't make me find those studies because I know how people like scientific studies and I know you already forgot that I linked those studies. But that is neither here nor there. I have been asking to see a tank full of quarantined, spawning, 25 year old or even 12 year old fish. I picked 25 because many of our more common fish live longer than that. If our fish live mostly for five years that's like a human dying as a teenager. Our lifespan is about 80 something so we know we can live to that age. Some of us have reached 118 but they didn't look to well and had lousy hairstyles. If one clownfish can live to 30, then they all have the capacity to get there, or at least close. If they do not, we did something wrong. This salt water hobby has been in the US since 1971, I know because I was there, I think it started on a Tuesday about 2:30 in the afternoon under an overcast sky. In all that time, there are more tanks with ich now as there was then. We see that silly ich lifecycle chart so many times that I think I am related to them. I know the lifecycle of duck billed platypuses but my tank is not bothered by them and I know how to keep my fish safe from them.
Now would you like to be immune from all diseases or try to stay away from them. If you have ever ridden the New York subway system you better hope your immune system is up to the task.
Now lets see those old quarantined, spawning fish.

Still got these guys

 

[Brew12]

Me and Humble have a fish love relationship and we always try to give the best advice to fish nerds even if it is totally opposite.

You guys both give very similar advice. You both advise to make parasites irrelevant to the fish. You, by making them immune. Humble, by removing the parasite from the equation. Either way, the fish is safe from them.

Seems like 2 sides to the same coin to me.

 

[Paul B]

Me and Humble "kind" of agree on everything. "Kind of" in a simple sort of backward way

 

[mcarroll]

They are still outliers, which speaks more to genetics than to exposure to germs.

Someone once said something like: "The only way to underestimate the impact of microbes on our lives is to fail to account for them."
(Mighta been Zimmerman, but he also mighta been quoting someone else....and the article is gone.)

We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought

^---That's the scientists talking c.2013.

 

[mcarroll]

I rarely feed my fish potatoes' but I have given them bananas. I don't remember a banana plague

As funny as it sounds, Google "banana plague". Gros Michel banana was taken out by Panama disease in the 1950's (I think). The bananas being sold now are also apparently susceptible.