A sideline discussion on Copper and overall benefits/detriments of prophylactic treatment in QT

[Cichlid Dad]

Yes, I read everything in each link that I posted.

As in most things in life, there is no perfect answer. There are pros & cons to every solution. Knowledge is one thing, discernment of data is another thing and the application of that knowledge is Wisdom.

So why jump down Jay's throat. He doesn't do anything but help here day and night

 

[Subsea]

So why jump down Jay's throat. He doesn't do anything but help here day and night

When I disagree with a point of view, it’s not personal.

Many entry level hobbiest are made fearful of pathogens, when in reality, our own immune system would crash without reoccurring pathogens. Contrary to what Jay says, the research scientist that I linked don’t concur with some of his hypothesis about learned immunity response.

It’s true, I don’t like invasive medical treatments when herd immunity and learned immunity response are viable, less invasive alternatives.

Yes, when expensive fish are concerned, I understand isolation & medical treatment to save a prized fish.

A protocol that assures fish are never exposed to pathogens seems dangerous for your display tank fish immune system.

I trust herd immunity before that type of quarantine protocol.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

When I disagree with a point of view, it’s not personal.

Many entry level hobbiest are made fearful of pathogens, when in reality, our own immune system would crash without reoccurring pathogens. Contrary to what Jay says, the research scientist that I linked don’t concur with some of his hypothesis about learned immunity response.

It’s true, I don’t like invasive medical treatments when herd immunity and learned immunity response are viable less invasive alternatives. Yes, when expensive fish are concerned, I understand isolation & medical treatment to save a prized fish.

A protocol that assures fish are never exposed to pathogens seems dangerous for your display tank fish immune system.

I trust herd immunity before that type of quarantine protocol.

I also believe the same, if you read the full post we were trying to get him to not worry so much and as you see that did not work. Jay read the situation correct and addressed this poster in this situation. I don't qt don't believe most people do it correctly any way and are waisting there time and money. That is where I come from. But if an individual won't listen and is hell bent, then a little guiding won't hurt

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay,
Research money for ornamental reef fish is scarce. I rely on academia thru Agriculture Corporate extension service for my information.

The research I share is as good as it gets in academia. For you to encourage chemical treatments before good husbandry is for me a serious problem. It reminds me of a surgeon who sees everything as an operation, when a diet change would be sufficient.

This thread began about quarantine tanks. I will ALWAYS promote preventative, proactive quarantine processes for new fish. Your thinking that this is a "serious problem" is simply not correct.

Jay

 

[Cichlid Dad]

@Jay Hemdal

When I came into the hobby in 1970, there were no hobby forums. With respect to ich, academia said 14 days,

Now, depending on whose talking, it’s 76 days.

I say the same thing that was said in Jurassic Park,
“Nature will find a way”.
And I say “herd immunity” is a way”.

1970!, Was salt even invented yet? LOL. I could not imagine doing this back then.

 

[Subsea]

1970!, Was salt even invented yet? LOL. I could not imagine doing this back then.

Initially, as a student on the G.I. BILL, my government disbursement was $175 a month. Because my wife worked for UT at Galveston, my tuition was $5 per semester hour while I attended The Texas Maritime Academy as a Marine Engineer.

Yes, I saw Instant Ocean in Decrmber of 1971. Walmart was having a promotion to introduce hobbiest to salt water fishkeeping. Yellow Tail Blue Damsels were $0.79

I had already set up a Galveston Bay 55G biotheme, using an undergravel filter with crushed up oyster shells from chicken feed hardware store as substrate. Water for marine display was collected at jetties on an incoming tide. Inhabitants collected at jetties included Curly Que anemone, peppermint shrimp and Sea Robbins.
Inhabitants collected in salt water marshes included, grass shrimp, green mollies and assorted seaweeds.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Initially, as a student on the G.I. BILL, my government disbursement was $175 a month. Because my wife worked for UT at Galveston, my tuition was $5 per semester hour while I attended The Texas Maritime Academy as a Marine Engineer.

Yes, I saw Instant Ocean in Decrmber of 1971. Walmart was having a promotion to introduce hobbiest to salt water fishkeeping. Yellow Tail Blue Damsels were $0.79

I had already set up a Galveston Bay 55G biotheme, using an undergravel filter with crushed up oyster shells from chicken feed hardware store as substrate. Water for marine display was collected at jetties on an incoming tide. Inhabitants collected at jetties included Curly Que anemone, peppermint shrimp and Sea Robbins.
Inhabitants collected in salt water marshes included, grass shrimp, green mollies and assorted seaweeds.

Ah, the good old days

 

[Subsea]

Ah, the good old days

Ignorance is bliss. And I was full of “tick & vinegar”.

 

[Subsea]

Ignorance is bliss. And I was full of “tick & vinegar”.

tick & vinegar. Wow. I can’t say urinate without an autocorrect to tick. Go figure.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Ignorance is bliss. And I was full of “tick & vinegar”.

I'm just very glad all of you old timers stuck it out, so us newer reef keepers are able to have the tanks we have today. I m in my fifty's and have kept fresh water most of my life, so I've experienced the transitions in that hobby. I have studied the old school ways and buy old books every time I see one. It's fun to see how things have evolved. Attached is my latest purchase.

 

[Spare time]

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

Defense Against Disease

Protective barriers against infection
Mucus
1. Any stress causes chemical changes in mucus which decrease its effectiveness as a chemical barrier against see Figure 2.

Defense Against Disease
Protective barriers against infection
1.Mucus (slime coat) is a physical barrier that inhibits entry of disease organisms from the environment into the fish. It is also a chemical barrier because it contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulins) that can kill invading organisms. Mucus also lubricates the fish, which aids movement through the water, and it is also important for osmoregulation.
2. Scales and skin function as a physical barrier that protects the fish against injury. When these are damaged, a window is opened for bacteria and other organisms to start an infection.
3. Inflammation (nonspecific cellular response) is a cellular response to an invading protein. An invading protein can be a bacteria, a virus, a parasite, a fungus, or a toxin. Inflammation is characterized by pain, swelling, redness, heat, and loss of function. It is a protective response and is an attempt by the body to wall off and destroy the invader.


This point is pivotal in the conversation for a learned immune response (gene expression) in fish dna code.

4. Antibodies (specific cellular response) are molecules spe- cifically formed to fight invading proteins or organisms. The first time the fish is exposed to an invader, antibodies are formed that will protect the fish from future infection by the same organism. Exposure to sublethal concentra- tions of pathogens is extremely important for a fish to develop a competent immune system. An animal raised in a sterile environment will have little protection from disease. Young animals do not have an immune response, which works as efficiently as the immune response in older animals, and therefore, may be susceptible to disease.

No one is saying a QT is a sterile environment (unless they are running anti virals and antibacterials at all times. A protozoan parasite is not the same thing as a bacterial or viral infection. Your argument is like saying people should get malaria or giardia otherwise their immune system will be weak.

 

[Subsea]

No one is saying a QT is a sterile environment (unless they are running anti virals and antibacterials at all times. A protozoan parasite is not the same thing as a bacterial or viral infection. Your argument is like saying people should get malaria or giardia otherwise their immune system will be weak.

There were quite a few points to the link, which point are you referring to?

 

[Treefer32]

I do believe preventative action has a place. However, I also agree that QT and treatment of fish is hard on fish and the treatment can sometimes be worse than disease. A few years back my mom had a tiny tumor the smaller than a grain of rice. It was considered on the border of needing to be operated on. But, the oncology doctors said yes, we need to remove, then do radiation to prevent anything else. The area radiated was close to her heart. Afterwards they told her that radiation that close to the heart would most likely cause some if not permanent damage.

It's possible that grain tinier than a grain of rice tumor may not have grown into anything, it's also possible she could have died from it later on. The third possibility is that after removal she may never have had any recurrance. Was the radiation necessary to prevent?

Human hospital systems aside, the story reflects damage that copper and other QT environmental factors can do to fish. Sure it may prevent anything from getting into the display, but what damage do those do to the fish?

That said, I have marine ich, possibly flukes, possibly uronema and brook permanently in my display tank. Some of those wouldn't even go away if I removed all fish and left it fallow. I have a Caribbean blue tang I've had for 3 - 4 years that had a massively severe case of ich. We thought he would most likely die in the next 2-3 weeks. I kept everything stable and did nothing with the tank for the last two months. As of yesterday the ich has all fallen off his body, his flesh is healing up quite nicely, and no other signs of ich on any other fish.

I don't know why the sudden break out. I've purposely not added anything for 6 months. My focus was on summer vacation and letting the tank be on idle. Whatever the cause is / was, it's motivating me to add UV to my display.

My winter tank project is to plumb a 120 watt UV into my return line to my display to ensure the most efficient treatment for parasites. I estimate a 1300 gph flow for the UV I'm planning to get, that's a turnover of 3-4 times per hour. I figure all 340 gallons of my display water should be sterilized within a few days tops. Outbreaks should be kept to a minimum even if adding new specimens.

It's the right amount of prevention, management, and low stress environment. I try to buy fish from reputable sources, make sure if I buy local the fish have been at the store a few months. (If they have velvet it should be apparent in the first few weeks). Otherwise I use places like TSM Aquatics that QTs fish for 60 days prior to sellin them. There are alternatives to QT, it's all a matter of risk management.

 

[Spare time]

I do believe preventative action has a place. However, I also agree that QT and treatment of fish is hard on fish and the treatment can sometimes be worse than disease. A few years back my mom had a tiny tumor the smaller than a grain of rice. It was considered on the border of needing to be operated on. But, the oncology doctors said yes, we need to remove, then do radiation to prevent anything else. The area radiated was close to her heart. Afterwards they told her that radiation that close to the heart would most likely cause some if not permanent damage.

It's possible that grain tinier than a grain of rice tumor may not have grown into anything, it's also possible she could have died from it later on. The third possibility is that after removal she may never have had any recurrance. Was the radiation necessary to prevent?

Human hospital systems aside, the story reflects damage that copper and other QT environmental factors can do to fish. Sure it may prevent anything from getting into the display, but what damage do those do to the fish?

That said, I have marine ich, possibly flukes, possibly uronema and brook permanently in my display tank. Some of those wouldn't even go away if I removed all fish and left it fallow. I have a Caribbean blue tang I've had for 3 - 4 years that had a massively severe case of ich. We thought he would most likely die in the next 2-3 weeks. I kept everything stable and did nothing with the tank for the last two months. As of yesterday the ich has all fallen off his body, his flesh is healing up quite nicely, and no other signs of ich on any other fish.

I don't know why the sudden break out. I've purposely not added anything for 6 months. My focus was on summer vacation and letting the tank be on idle. Whatever the cause is / was, it's motivating me to add UV to my display.

My winter tank project is to plumb a 120 watt UV into my return line to my display to ensure the most efficient treatment for parasites. I estimate a 1300 gph flow for the UV I'm planning to get, that's a turnover of 3-4 times per hour. I figure all 340 gallons of my display water should be sterilized within a few days tops. Outbreaks should be kept to a minimum even if adding new specimens.

It's the right amount of prevention, management, and low stress environment. I try to buy fish from reputable sources, make sure if I buy local the fish have been at the store a few months. (If they have velvet it should be apparent in the first few weeks). Otherwise I use places like TSM Aquatics that QTs fish for 60 days prior to sellin them. There are alternatives to QT, it's all a matter of risk management.

But where is actual the evidence that QT is hard on fish? I always hear it, but usually just because a fish died while it just so happen to be in a QT (and the cause of death could have been dozens of things).

Copper imo is more of a wear a hazmat suit for a month because you may have brought some mosquitos with malaria in with your luggage and you have to sit in a room with them until they die.


PS kudos to your mom for being heckin tough

 

[Treefer32]

But where is actual the evidence that QT is hard on fish? I always hear it, but usually just because a fish died while it just so happen to be in a QT (and the cause of death could have been dozens of things).

Copper imo is more of a wear a hazmat suit for a month because you may have brought some mosquitos with malaria in with your luggage and you have to sit in a room with them until they die.


PS kudos to your mom for being heckin tough

Thanks! I agree! Copper is hard on fish organs is my understanding. It can kill or damage fish long term. Not saying it will 100% of the time.

 

[Subsea]

“But where is actual the evidence that QT is hard on fish? I always hear it, but usually just because a fish died while it just so happen to be in a QT (and the cause of death could have been dozens of things).“

@Spare time
The number of post to disease forum should be a red flag, but it’s not data.

The link below from research scientist discusses the related subjects with data.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

 

[Subsea]

I do believe preventative action has a place. However, I also agree that QT and treatment of fish is hard on fish and the treatment can sometimes be worse than disease. A few years back my mom had a tiny tumor the smaller than a grain of rice. It was considered on the border of needing to be operated on. But, the oncology doctors said yes, we need to remove, then do radiation to prevent anything else. The area radiated was close to her heart. Afterwards they told her that radiation that close to the heart would most likely cause some if not permanent damage.

It's possible that grain tinier than a grain of rice tumor may not have grown into anything, it's also possible she could have died from it later on. The third possibility is that after removal she may never have had any recurrance. Was the radiation necessary to prevent?

Human hospital systems aside, the story reflects damage that copper and other QT environmental factors can do to fish. Sure it may prevent anything from getting into the display, but what damage do those do to the fish?

That said, I have marine ich, possibly flukes, possibly uronema and brook permanently in my display tank. Some of those wouldn't even go away if I removed all fish and left it fallow. I have a Caribbean blue tang I've had for 3 - 4 years that had a massively severe case of ich. We thought he would most likely die in the next 2-3 weeks. I kept everything stable and did nothing with the tank for the last two months. As of yesterday the ich has all fallen off his body, his flesh is healing up quite nicely, and no other signs of ich on any other fish.

I don't know why the sudden break out. I've purposely not added anything for 6 months. My focus was on summer vacation and letting the tank be on idle. Whatever the cause is / was, it's motivating me to add UV to my display.

My winter tank project is to plumb a 120 watt UV into my return line to my display to ensure the most efficient treatment for parasites. I estimate a 1300 gph flow for the UV I'm planning to get, that's a turnover of 3-4 times per hour. I figure all 340 gallons of my display water should be sterilized within a few days tops. Outbreaks should be kept to a minimum even if adding new specimens.

It's the right amount of prevention, management, and low stress environment. I try to buy fish from reputable sources, make sure if I buy local the fish have been at the store a few months. (If they have velvet it should be apparent in the first few weeks). Otherwise I use places like TSM Aquatics that QTs fish for 60 days prior to sellin them. There are alternatives to QT, it's all a matter of risk management.

@Treefer32
Kudoes to your post.

Risk Management is a good platform to start a conversation.

Because I have too many reef aquariums and too many other interest in my life, time management is my critical criteria for reef tank husbandry. With that said, I choose easy to maintain mixed gardens with heavy emphases on Caribbean macro algaes, sponges and numerous other filter feeders. I grow phyto & zooplankton to feed to all tanks. No quarantine for 50 years. No ich visible for 20 years.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Thanks! I agree! Copper is hard on fish organs is my understanding. It can kill or damage fish long term. Not saying it will 100% of the time.

Iv been told to look at it this way. Same thing as giving someone chemo in case they have cancer.

 

[Subsea]

Iv been told to look at it this way. Same thing as giving someone chemo in case they have cancer.

In my living will there is a no revive clause and a no extensive life support clause. I have lived a full life and I believe in a spiritual eternity. Each should make their own choice. However, fish in quarantine get zero choices.

Recently, a very close friend was told this by MD Anderson oncology, “Your quality of life is secondary, but we will save your life from prostate cancer”.

 

[Dcal]

In my living will there is a no revive clause and a no extensive life support clause. I have lived a full life and I believe in a spiritual eternity. Each should make their own choice. However, fish in quarantine get zero choices.

Recently, a very close friend was told this by MD Anderson oncology, “Your quality of life is secondary, but we will save your life from prostate cancer”

i mean prostate cancer cant decimate all the fish in your display if the new fish has it...

dont know how we got to talking about living wills from a newby asking how to set up a qt lol