A sideline discussion on Copper and overall benefits/detriments of prophylactic treatment in QT

[Subsea]

i mean prostate cancer cant decimate all the fish in your display if the new fish has it...

dont know how we got to talking about living wills from a newby asking how to set up a qt lol

Stress was the thought that bought prostate cancer & living will into this thread. Just like quarantine introduces stress to fish.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

However, fish in quarantine get zero choices.

Seriously??

 

[Subsea]

Seriously??

Did you ask them what they wanted? SERIOUSLY

 

[Subsea]

MUCH research money is available for aquaculture & mariculture. So, that is where I go to get quantitative data on fish disease & husbandry. The article is four pages. The last paragraph before the summary reads

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

“disease treatment is an artificial way of slowing down the invading pathogen so that the fish has time to defend itself with an immune response. Any stress that adversely affects the ability of the fish to protect itself will result in an ongo- ing disease problem; as soon as the treatment wears off, the pathogen can build up its numbers and attack again. Rarely would a treatment result in total annihilation of an invading organism. Disease control is dependent upon the ability of the fish to overcome infection, as well as the efficacy of the chemical or antibiotic used.”

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

 

[Cichlid Dad]

 

[Jay Hemdal]

But where is actual the evidence that QT is hard on fish? I always hear it, but usually just because a fish died while it just so happen to be in a QT (and the cause of death could have been dozens of things).

Copper imo is more of a wear a hazmat suit for a month because you may have brought some mosquitos with malaria in with your luggage and you have to sit in a room with them until they die.


PS kudos to your mom for being heckin tough

Properly done, quarantine is not hard on fish. What happens all to often though is people set up their QT as an after thought, or on short notice, and that is a recipe for disaster.
There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish, certainly not long term. Ionic copper is more toxic, but only short term.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Disease control is dependent upon the ability of the fish to overcome infection, as well as the efficacy of the chemical or antibiotic used.”

The last sentence I think tells the tale. The fish has to overcome the infection, and the chemical/antibiotic used needs to be effective. I do not see that the article is recommending not treating disease with antibiotcs/chemicals. Of course minimizing stress Is important. As to the OP's original question - I would set up the QT and display tank at the same time. Even if he/she does not decide to QT his/her fish, at least he/she would have the ability to treat fish without scrambling to arrange it when/if they have a sick fish.

IMHO - another option would be to get fish from a reputable source (already quarantined) - or perhaps captive bred fish. Or one could try the @Lasse method for starting an aquarium. I personally favor the methods recommended by R2R/ @Jay Hemdal - since they seem safe when done correctly.

 

[Subsea]

The last sentence I think tells the tale. The fish has to overcome the infection, and the chemical/antibiotic used needs to be effective. I do not see that the article is recommending not treating disease with antibiotcs/chemicals. Of course minimizing stress Is important. As to the OP's original question - I would set up the QT and display tank at the same time. Even if he/she does not decide to QT his/her fish, at least he/she would have the ability to treat fish without scrambling to arrange it when/if they have a sick fish.

IMHO - another option would be to get fish from a reputable source (already quarantined) - or perhaps captive bred fish. Or one could try the @Lasse method for starting an aquarium. I personally favor the methods recommended by R2R/ @Jay Hemdal - since they seem safe when done correctly.

@MnFish1
The last sentence is the smallest detail in the big picture of stress and its influence on immune system. In the rest of the peer reviewed scientific paper, sanitizing fish to live in a pathogen free environment is a recipe for disaster with any new invasion.


Disease.pdf

“disease treatment is an artificial way of slowing down the invading pathogen so that the fish has time to defend itself with an immune response. Any stress that adversely affects the ability of the fish to protect itself will result in an ongo- ing disease problem; as soon as the treatment wears off, the pathogen can build up its numbers and attack again. Rarely would a treatment result in total annihilation of an invading organism. Disease control is dependent upon the ability of the fish to overcome infection, as well as the efficacy of the chemical or antibiotic used.”



As you pointed out, this thread ask about a quarantine tank.

 

[Lasse]

There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish

My bolt
Do you mean then that it is safe to overdose Cupramine then? Seachem by themselves is not so sure on that (from here) My bolt

Cupramine™ effectively eradicates Oodinium, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Ichthyophthirius, and other ectoparasites of both freshwater and marine fish. It is superior to copper sulfate, chloride & citrate: it is non-acidic, less toxic to fish, remains in solution, and does not contaminate the filter bed. It is superior to chelates: it is fully charged (ionic), active at low concentrations, and is removable with carbon.

There is more than a four-fold concentration gap between the minimal therapeutic dose (0.2 mg/L) and the toxic dose (0.8 mg/L). Cupramine™ is easily removable with chemical filtration. It is highly effective and safe in freshwater as well as marine water.

Interesting to read this article that is a review of sublethal toxicity of different cupper species to different fish

Review of Copper and Copper Nanoparticle Toxicity in Fish

This review summarizes the present knowledge on the toxicity of copper and copper nanoparticles (CuNPs) to various fish species. In previous decades, the excessive usage of metal and metallic nanoparticles has increased significantly, increasing the probability ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Moved this conversation from its original thread to a new thread to keep the original thread on track and allow continued discussion of this topic here. Happy reefing!

 

[Subsea]

I decided to see what scientific researchers in other parts of the world had to say about stress effecting immune system in fish:

Influence of Stress on Immune System of Fish​

Article about immune system stress in fish.
aquafind.com
Influence of Stress on Immune System of Fish
Biraj Bikash Sharma* and Gadadhar Dash
Department of Aquatic Animal Health
Faculty of Fishery Sciences, West Bengal University of Animal and Fishery Sciences
Kolkata - 700094, West Bengal, India
*Corresponding author: [email protected]


EFFECTS OF STRESS ON PROTECTIVE BARRIERS

Chronic stress leads to lower the ability of the immune system to respond effectively. This stress increases the susceptibility of the fishes to diseases by decreasing their defense ability (both first line, second line and third line).

Affects on the first line of defense:

1. Mucus:

It is a physical barrier that inhibits entry of pathogens. It is also a chemical barrier that contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulin). Mucus also lubricates the fish and aids in movement and is important for osmoregulation.

How stress affects mucus (1st line of defense)?

• Stress causes chemical changes in the mucus :
  • Upsets the normal electrolyte (sodium, potassium, chloride) balance
  • Which results in excessive uptake of water by freshwater fish and dehydration in saltwater fish
• Handling stress physically removes mucus resulting in decreased chemical protection, osmoregulatory function and lubrication, hence, causing the fish to use more energy. This facilitates pathogens to invade.
• Chemical Stress (i.e. Disease treatment) causes the same as handling stress.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My bolt
Do you mean then that it is safe to overdose Cupramine then? Seachem by themselves is not so sure on that (from here) My bolt



Interesting to read this article that is a review of sublethal toxicity of different cupper species to different fish

Review of Copper and Copper Nanoparticle Toxicity in Fish

This review summarizes the present knowledge on the toxicity of copper and copper nanoparticles (CuNPs) to various fish species. In previous decades, the excessive usage of metal and metallic nanoparticles has increased significantly, increasing the probability ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sincerely Lasse

Where did I say it was safe to overdose copper medications? Cupramine is an ionic copper and is a bit rougher on the fish than amine-chelated copper products are. It has less leeway in terms of dose/toxicity. There is ZERO evidence that amine-based chelated copper products have clinical toxicity issues when properly used.

The paper you linked to discusses ionic/elemental copper. That is not the same thing as amine-complexed copper. To put it another way - elemental copper is toxic to marine fish, even in small amounts. Add EDTA and the copper is still there, but is now completely non-toxic. Amine-based copper products are sort of in-between. They are not toxic to fish at treatment levels, but are still relatively effective against protozoan parasites.

Jay

 

[Lasse]

From Seachems website. I´ll think they have another opinion on this compared with you

Can you please give example on what you mean with " Amine-based copper products". A product or a formula. Can you give me only one valid reference that amine based copper products not are bioaccumulated and/or in the long run not toxic to fish? If you state what you did before "There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish" you must also prove that the statement "There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are not toxic to fish" is false.

Where did I say it was safe to overdose copper medications?

Here - indirectly my bold

There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish, certainly not long term

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal]

From Seachems website. I´ll think they have another opinion on this compared with you

Can you please give example on what you mean with " Amine-based copper products". A product or a formula. Can you give me only one valid reference that amine based copper products not are bioaccumulated and/or in the long run not toxic to fish? If you state what you did before "There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish" you must also prove that the statement "There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are not toxic to fish" is false.



Here - indirectly my bold



Sincerely Lasse

As I said, Cupramine is an ionic complexed copper, not chelated like coppersafe or copper power are. That is shown by its lower safe dose. Coppersafe and copper power are dosed at around 2.25 ppm.

I have decades of empirical evidence that amine chelated coppers are safe and effective, dating back to the mid-1980’s. It is up to YOU to provide counter evidence. However, there isn’t any, not even empirical.

Jay

 

[Subsea]

Jay,
In earlier conversation, you said you knew of no data linking medication & quarantine to stress that contributes to a weakened immune system In fish.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

Is any of this research relevant to you?

 

[Lasse]

Do you mean that Seachem lies in their description of their product? Is this article false too? From what I understand, this article was written by the person who developed Cupramine at Seachem

It is up to YOU to provide counter evidence. However, there isn’t any, not even empirical.

Excuse a youngster but I have not state anything - you have state

There is zero evidence that amine based copper products are toxic to fish

I only ask if there is any evidences or studies (including pathological studies) that show you right. Not only your thoughts.

And if you have used these products since the middle of the eighties - why is it impossible to get any information through the web or not even a brand that sell these products. And the one that seems to sell them does not do it according to you

This article written 2010 and Reviewed November 2019 - do not mention amine based copper at all.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay,
In earlier conversation, you said you knew of no data linking medication & quarantine to stress that contributes to a weakened immune system In fish.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

Is any of this research relevant to you?

That isn't research, that's just an article by Dr. Francis-Floyd. It carries no more weight that my fish disease book does. She doesn't have a strong connection with the home aquarium hobby. She likely has never used an amine-based copper product to treat fish.


Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you mean that Seachem lies in their description of their product? Is this article false too? From what I understand, this article was written by the person who developed Cupramine at Seachem



Excuse a youngster but I have not state anything - you have state



I only ask if there is any evidences or studies (including pathological studies) that show you right. Not only your thoughts.

And if you have used these products since the middle of the eighties - why is it impossible to get any information through the web or not even a brand that sell these products. And the one that seems to sell them does not do it according to you

This article written 2010 and Reviewed November 2019 - do not mention amine based copper at all.

Sincerely Lasse

Can you explain again how Cupramine is part of your argument? I keep telling you it is not the same product as what I am discussing and you keep bringing it up. It is NOT a chelated copper solution. Look at the upper formula in diagram #3 - that is what I am discussing.

Like many aquarium products, the formula for Coppersafe is locked up tightly in their patents. Originally developed in Great Britain, it got sold to Sergeants Pet Care who then sold it to Fritz in 2014. Mars Inc owned it at some point as well. I cannot tell you how Copper Power was able to market what is apparently the same product, without having issues with patent infringement.

Dr. Roy mostly works with fisheries, plus extensive freshwater work for Florida fish farms. He does mention chelated copper in that article:

CHELATED COPPER​

Chelating agents are compounds added to copper sulfate in water. These agents help keep copper in solution by forming a ring-structured complex with copper. These complexes vary in their stability, depending upon the agent used. EDTA, one such agent, is very stable in solution. Citrate is also used, but citrate-copper complexes are less stable. However, citrate-copper complexes have more biological activity than EDTA-copper complexes, and are also easier to remove after treatment (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988).

Note he says, "one such agent" - meaning he isn't listing them all.


Jay

 

[Sebastiancrab]

Jay,
Research money for ornamental reef fish is scarce. I rely on academia thru Agriculture Corporate extension service for my information.

The research I share is as good as it gets in academia. For you to encourage chemical treatments before good husbandry is for me a serious problem. It reminds me of a surgeon who sees everything as an operation, when a diet change would be sufficient.

Oh geez! Jay has been a tremendous help to me in the past. He knows his stuff!

I have brought home fish with ALL the major bugs and diseases. Some survived treatment in QT and some not. Last week, my third try with a Vandy Chromis died once again from uronema. I purchased him upon delivery in the LFS without it going in their display tank. They were bought from different LFSs. The only safe bet, with the supply chain being what it is today, is to assume your odds are VERY HIGH you are bringing home a sick fish. I have been thankful I have not lost all my fish in my DT.