Aeration: Skimmer VS Nature

[GARRIGA]

Randy,

I hear often how you would use a skimmer if for nothing else than aeration. However, what would I be missing were I to replace the real estate a skimmer takes with a refugium plus I can vacate the sock area and expand the refugium? Saw BRS do exactly that and based on experience that refugium captures detritus until it breaks down. Guessing nature best at it and helpers such as bristle (not fire), pods and Nassarius would help decompose that the socks would have removed and macroalgae the rest. Key would be running lights 24/7 and then turning them off when pH rises above a certain point.

I’ve run refugiums 24/7 both fresh and salt. No ill affects. From what I’ve seen. They don’t need a darkness period. Learned that from those growing pot. Those guys push the envelope and seem to have the science down since efficiency increases production and therefore profits. That or they have more to smoke. Probably both

Let nature remove co2. Add oxygen. Eliminate the need for additives to raise alkalinity and pH. Could literally seal the tank minus feed ports reducing evaporation. Win win to me but I often miss something and why I ask.

That seal isn’t permanent by the way and I’ve tested this and evaporation as expected literally zero. Glass lid solves many concerns such as an ATO that might fail.

Keep it simple. Keep it affordable. Keep it low maintenance. Gonna need to come up with new acronym for that. Obvious choice likely not the best.

 

[exnisstech]

I have three tanks running and no skimmers. My most recent build I'm running a cryptic fuge and an ATS. I would never run a skimmer for aeration because I think its silly. Plenty of surface agitation along with water flowing over the sump baffles give my tanks all the aeration they need. I don't chase or monitor pH but I do dose for A and C.

EDIT I'm not against skimmers for nutrient removal I just have no need to run one for aeration.

 

[beamers]

I couldn’t even imagine not running a skimmer. My tank is lightly stocked (5 fish in an 75) and still pulls out so much gunk.
The aeration is just an added bonus. Shrug

 

[GARRIGA]

I couldn’t even imagine not running a skimmer. My tank is lightly stocked (5 fish in an 75) and still pulls out so much gunk.
The aeration is just an added bonus. Shrug

Is the aeration provided by the skimmer different than a Fuge what I'm asking. Not debating whether to or not to run a skimmer. Just gaining knowledge on what exactly I'm missing by substituting the skimmer with a Fuge specific to aeration

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,

I hear often how you would use a skimmer if for nothing else than aeration. However, what would I be missing were I to replace the real estate a skimmer takes with a refugium plus I can vacate the sock area and expand the refugium? Saw BRS do exactly that and based on experience that refugium captures detritus until it breaks down. Guessing nature best at it and helpers such as bristle (not fire), pods and Nassarius would help decompose that the socks would have removed and macroalgae the rest. Key would be running lights 24/7 and then turning them off when pH rises above a certain point.

I’ve run refugiums 24/7 both fresh and salt. No ill affects. From what I’ve seen. They don’t need a darkness period. Learned that from those growing pot. Those guys push the envelope and seem to have the science down since efficiency increases production and therefore profits. That or they have more to smoke. Probably both

Let nature remove co2. Add oxygen. Eliminate the need for additives to raise alkalinity and pH. Could literally seal the tank minus feed ports reducing evaporation. Win win to me but I often miss something and why I ask.

That seal isn’t permanent by the way and I’ve tested this and evaporation as expected literally zero. Glass lid solves many concerns such as an ATO that might fail.

Keep it simple. Keep it affordable. Keep it low maintenance. Gonna need to come up with new acronym for that. Obvious choice likely not the best.

I've yet to see any established reef aquarium that does not show a change in pH during the course of a day. That indicates incomplete gas exchange.

Are there better uses of space and money than a skimmer? That's certainly possible. Both refugia and skimmers have advantages of different types, and both are useful. If I had to pick only one, it would be a skimmer, but other folks might come to a different conclusion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is the aeration provided by the skimmer different than a Fuge what I'm asking. Not debating whether to or not to run a skimmer. Just gaining knowledge on what exactly I'm missing by substituting the skimmer with a Fuge specific to aeration

Yes. When not lit, the refugium consumes O2 and adds CO2. Skimmers always drive the air toward equilibration with the air entering the skimmer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

EDIT I'm not against skimmers for nutrient removal I just have no need to run one for aeration.

How do you know?

 

[GARRIGA]

Yes. When not lit, the refugium consumes O2 and adds CO2. Skimmers always drive the air toward equilibration with the air entering the skimmer.

Therefore when lit the Fuge performs the same function as the skimmer as it pertains to gas exchange? That’s what I’m trying to dissect. To me they one and the same.

 

[GARRIGA]

I've yet to see any established reef aquarium that does not show a change in pH during the course of a day. That indicates incomplete gas exchange.

But would this occur differently between a skimmer and a Fuge.

My thought process being that Fuge constantly removing co2 vs the skimmer is merely bringing to equilibrium tank co2 with room co2 assuming I’m understanding the affect of aeration correctly. Just seems easier to control co2 by shutting lights off when pH rises above a certain point. Sane I guess can be done with a skimmer I suppose.

 

[exnisstech]

How do you know?

Because everything in the tanks are doing great. I'm not a science guy but look for visual indicators and I see nothing indicating my tanks need more aeration. JMO no facts to back it up just decent looking tanks with no skimmers

 

[Miami Reef]

Therefore when lit the Fuge performs the same function as the skimmer as it pertains to gas exchange? That’s what I’m trying to dissect. To me they one and the same.

When not lit (at night) the fuge will work against aeration by consuming O2 and releasing CO2. It will do the opposite of what we want.

I think a protein skimmer is incomparable when it comes to aeration.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Therefore when lit the Fuge performs the same function as the skimmer as it pertains to gas exchange? That’s what I’m trying to dissect. To me they one and the same.

Not the same, exactly, but refugia will boost O2 and remove CO2 when lit. They can drive O2 above saturation and drive CO2 to low levels (raising pH). Skimmers won't do that unless the air has lower than normal CO2 (a scrubber, for example).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because everything in the tanks are doing great. I'm not a science guy but look for visual indicators and I see nothing indicating my tanks need more aeration. JMO no facts to back it up just decent looking tanks with no skimmers

OK, so the conclusion is that you do not feel the need for one because the tank looks great.

I cannot argue with that except to note that without trying it, you also do not know how things would do with a skimmer.

 

[GARRIGA]

When not lit (at night) the fuge will work against aeration by consuming O2 and releasing CO2. It will do the opposite of what we want.

I think a protein skimmer is incomparable when it comes to aeration.

But I solve that by being lit 24/7 and only turning the lights off when pH rises past a certain point where now co2 contribution by plants would help lower it back to acceptable levels.

Granted this can also be done with the skimmer during the day when corals strip co2 although never heard anyone do that. Seems going to 8.6 all the craze. I’ll be content with 8.3 and set my controller to turn power off to the Fuge lights based on that regardless of day or night. Logically seems that will keep pH stabilized closer to 8.3 since large enough Fuge should provide all the co2 stripping needed to raise pH to desired levels. At least in theory. Hopefully that made sense. Scrambled my mind saying it.

 

[GARRIGA]

Not the same, exactly, but refugia will boost O2 and remove CO2 when lit. They can drive O2 above saturation and drive CO2 to low levels (raising pH). Skimmers won't do that unless the air has lower than normal CO2 (a scrubber, for example).

Didn’t consider over saturation of oxygen. These are the details I’m seeking and do have a meter to test that. However, has that ever been a concern that you know of? Guessing those early adapters running Adey ATS or Triton would have large enough systems that might have pushed that limit.

 

[Garf]

But would this occur differently between a skimmer and a Fuge.

My thought process being that Fuge constantly removing co2 vs the skimmer is merely bringing to equilibrium tank co2 with room co2 assuming I’m understanding the affect of aeration correctly. Just seems easier to control co2 by shutting lights off when pH rises above a certain point. Sane I guess can be done with a skimmer I suppose.

Efficiency may be the determining factor in your decision maybe? How much power are you going to throw onto the algae to get the comparable oxygen effects? You don't need a skimmer, an air pump works to an extent, even a tiny pump with an air inlet, as long as you are prepared to deal with tiny bubbles.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Efficiency may be the determining factor in your decision maybe? How much power are you going to throw onto the algae to get the comparable oxygen effects? You don't need a skimmer, an air pump works to an extent, even a tiny pump with an air inlet, as long as you are prepared to deal with tiny bubbles.

Electrical cost was the main reason I initially switched from refugia to vinegar dosing for nutrient control. Later I saw the positive effect on filter feeders.

 

[Pntbll687]

Randy,

I hear often how you would use a skimmer if for nothing else than aeration. However, what would I be missing were I to replace the real estate a skimmer takes with a refugium plus I can vacate the sock area and expand the refugium? Saw BRS do exactly that and based on experience that refugium captures detritus until it breaks down. Guessing nature best at it and helpers such as bristle (not fire), pods and Nassarius would help decompose that the socks would have removed and macroalgae the rest. Key would be running lights 24/7 and then turning them off when pH rises above a certain point.

I’ve run refugiums 24/7 both fresh and salt. No ill affects. From what I’ve seen. They don’t need a darkness period. Learned that from those growing pot. Those guys push the envelope and seem to have the science down since efficiency increases production and therefore profits. That or they have more to smoke. Probably both

Let nature remove co2. Add oxygen. Eliminate the need for additives to raise alkalinity and pH. Could literally seal the tank minus feed ports reducing evaporation. Win win to me but I often miss something and why I ask.

That seal isn’t permanent by the way and I’ve tested this and evaporation as expected literally zero. Glass lid solves many concerns such as an ATO that might fail.

Keep it simple. Keep it affordable. Keep it low maintenance. Gonna need to come up with new acronym for that. Obvious choice likely not the best.

A skimmer is going to try and bring the tank into equilibrium with the outside air, since it is injecting the outside air into the water. This will never "add" oxygen to a tank, it may however reduce co2 levels if you don't have much gas exchange. Now, if you live in a recently built house or one with good insulation, the skimmer may not have much affect on co2 levels in the tank if the room co2 is high.

A fuge can raise ph and reduce co2 when it is lit, but will add co2 when it is not lit. As far as lighting 24/7, probably ok. But a refugium is not cannabis, so I don't think the comparison is valid.

How would running a fuge 24/7 replace the need to dose alkalinity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A skimmer is going to try and bring the tank into equilibrium with the outside air, since it is injecting the outside air into the water. This will never "add" oxygen to a tank, it may however reduce co2 levels if you don't have much gas exchange. Now, if you live in a recently built house or one with good insulation, the skimmer may not have much affect on co2 levels in the tank if the room co2 is high.

If a tank is below O2 saturation, as they can be at night, why would a skimmer not add O2 then?

 

[Pntbll687]

But would this occur differently between a skimmer and a Fuge.

My thought process being that Fuge constantly removing co2 vs the skimmer is merely bringing to equilibrium tank co2 with room co2 assuming I’m understanding the affect of aeration correctly. Just seems easier to control co2 by shutting lights off when pH rises above a certain point. Sane I guess can be done with a skimmer I suppose.

You can even get fancy and have a solenoid on a co2 scrubber for the skimmer. Run the air through the scrubber when ph is below X and close the solenoid to pull outside air when above Y.