Blue Jaw, Ich and more . . . pics to help

[Mini Coop]

Ich outbreak! This might be long, but I am new, and I think the history is important here . . . my first post ever, and I am so sad that it is about ich.

Help. Please. I have had my tank up for a little over 2 months now, going on 3. I have a large reef, and only have 2 corals. 120 gallon.
The fish store had a sale (well known, Aqarium Adventure store) and I have a friend that works there. I knew nothing of a QT - my friend has worked in aquariums forever and never even mentioned it! Now I know better.
- initial set up - live rock with tap water, no conditioner
- 2 weeks in added 2 clowns, hermit crabs and snails (water tested well as rock was VERY well cured)
- 2 weeks later added blue jaw trigger, fox face and sailfin and cleaner shrimp.
- 2 weeks after that (one month in total) did first water change - again - tap water, no conditioner, said salt would take care of it all.
- about 3 weeks after that (labor day weekend) FRIDAY added splendid pseudo (who died of unknown causes 3 days after water change probably ammonia from tap water again), blue hippo tang, flame angel, 2 fire fish and a fire shrimp.
- Sunday of LD weekend - I did water change - upon advice from friend - use tap water instead of waiting an extra week to get my new RO system hooked up. (again, I think I know better now).
- Woke up Monday, both shrimp were dead (thinking ammonia now). (took them to the store, got credit for the new one, but they didn't test water, thinking it was fine). (this was on the 5th)

Fast forward to this past friday (16th, almost 2 weeks after tap water change).
Came home after a VERY long day and evening, and my blue hippo tang was COVERED in white spots. We had seen some on her here and there but thought it was dust from the rocks that she was swimming in. Then I saw a few on my blue jaw trigger, but they seemed to come and go. The next morning, we saw the flame angel was covered. We lost the blue tang and flame angel that day. It was horrendous!
Then my sailfin started getting really bad. I launched into our local pet store (PETCO) because we live at least 1 hour from the nearest aquarium store, and also called my friend for advice. I got the KORDON ich attack. I figured something was better than nothing. I noticed 2- 3 spots on the fox face, a couple on the clowns, a lot on the trigger, but nothing on the fire fish. The ich attack is reef safe, and I am dosing 1/4 cup twice a day because of the severity of the ich. The clowns, trigger and sailfin also looked like their fins had some kind of white powder on them . . . maybe just from the ich? I also started putting garlic in their food (frozen shrimp is what i feed along with the life pellets).

I have been treating the ich attack for 4 days now. Raised temp to 80. Ammonia test and strip test all are coming back completely fine! But I heard that I really needed to quarantine the effected fish and treat with copper.
I have seen it ALL in 4 days of research:
- the ich attack works really well
- it went away on its own and never came back
- it killed all my fish
- MUST do QT with copper treatment
- Treat for 8 weeks ALL fish (2 weeks, 3 weeks, 8 weeks . . . all kinds of time ranges)
- Only treat the ones that have it bad
- all fish always have ich
- you can never get rid of it completely
- you can if you do it right
- Dont QT if they aren't getting worse, the stress of being caught may do more harm than good
The more I read the more confused I get!

I spent the money on the QT with a sponge filter (since I am not using it yet, it is in my sump to get the good bacteria for when I do need it, and I also borrowed a piece of live rock from my DT sump to put in the QT before it has copper or anything in it - no idea if that will help, but did it anyway.) It is all set up, ready to go along with a trash barrel of about 40 gallons of water mixing and ready to go for frequent water changes if needed.

Here is the thing - I tried to catch the dang clowns for 2 hours last night, with no success, and stressed them all out. I gave up because they were all looking better and figured I would try a trap today (which I didn't get to).
Everyone is looking really good and eating fine! The sailfin (who was the worst) is almost completely clear. She still has a couple of spots, but almost all gone (which I know doesn't mean the ich is gone). Everyone looks almost completely clear except my blue jaw. He is acting fine. He has actually been out more tonight than he is other times. He is super shy. He ate like crazy. I don't know if the ich could have scared him because I am not sure it looks like he has more, but I don't feel like the spots have changed much.
- Do I need to QT him? (If so, how in the WORLD do I catch him)
- What do you think this is?
- Do I need to QT anyone else?

Someone please help me make sense of the 30,000 opinions I have read. I am willing to do this and make this a real hobby, and feel as though I have learned WAY more early than I intended, but I can't bear to lose any more fish, especially my Trigger. He is my favorite. I love them all so much and the tank is supposed to be my joy and relaxation. I hope I can get it there again! Thank you in advance. Hopefully the pics attach well.

 

[Mini Coop]

PS - the spots on him look like they have fadded if that makes any sense whatsoever, and he is the only one that has them like this.

 

[Humblefish]

I think it's very likely you are dealing with Marine Velvet Disease here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

This is how I treat it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[melypr1985]

I agree with humble on velvet. I also want to point out that using tap water without a conditioner to take care of the chlorine and other things in the water is probably what started all this. I wouldnt say that ammonia was your problem per se, it was probably the chlorine in the tap water. The fact that you had fish survive to become sick is amazing to me. I wish you the best of luck! Please be sure to ask any questions you have about the link humble posted for you. We are more than happy to help!

 

[Mini Coop]

Update: thank you for all of the advice. I now have a quarantine tank set up, but the 2 fish I've been able to catch haven't made it. I'm so sad that this has been an introduction to the saltwater tank I've dreamed about since I was a little girl. I have a sailfin, fox face and 2 little fire fish left out of a full stock (and yes, all of that upon advice of a friend that has worked at an aquarium saltwater a specialist for 9 years.). He was also the one who said the salt would take care of the chlorine in the water.... but now it is what it is.
So, any advice for catching the remaining 4 fish? They are impossible! And I couldn't bear to take down the entire reef.
2. How long do I need to let the main tank with no fish, and just my snails and crabs to get rid of everything. I'm planning on doing 25% weekly water changes even while the tank runs fallow. Would that work?

 

[melypr1985]

So, any advice for catching the remaining 4 fish? They are impossible! And I couldn't bear to take down the entire reef.
2. How long do I need to let the main tank with no fish, and just my snails and crabs to get rid of everything. I'm planning on doing 25% weekly water changes even while the tank runs fallow. Would that work?

You could try a fish trap. You can google "diy fish trap" for an easy one to make.

Leave the display fallow for 76 days to be sure there are no more parasites left in the tank including ick and velvet. You should treat your display like you normally would with fish in it except for feeding - cut that back to a couple times a week instead of every day.

 

[BoneXriffic]

Totally chlorine was the killer here....the fish disease is spoken for but all that death wasnt amonia in tap water. Depending on you water system if they are injecting amonia intothw supply itnis bonding with chlorine to for chloramines. So never dothat again. Also... if you get water tested always write down the numbers they can be important! Goodluck

 

[Humblefish]

So, any advice for catching the remaining 4 fish? They are impossible! And I couldn't bear to take down the entire reef.

Build a fish trap out of eggcrate for the larger fish:

And bait a bottle trap for the firefish:

 

[Mini Coop]

Thank you. Yes. I have certainly learned from my mistakes! I'm positive of the chlorine. I was able to catch my 2 fire fish tonight! I thought they would be the hardest! But the fox face and sailfin seem to be avoiding everything. I set a trap the other night. They wouldn't go near it. Maybe if I try to put their dinner in it!? I am just praying that the copper treatment doesn't kill them.

1. Is there any kind of test that will give me more accurate numbers at home? I have the strip tests. I also have the ammonia test that I have been using on a daily basis. But that seems to be completely stable. And all of the other numbers look fine.

2. Also, can I go ahead and try to grow some corals while I am running fallow? I only have one so far, and with the fish being on quarantine, it would give me something fun to do in the main tank, but I don't know if that is OK or not I have one mushroom doing really really well.

3. "Treat the tank like normal". So I feed pellets every couple of days and frozen shrimp once a day. I keep feeding the shrimp even twice a week and a couple pellets a day?

4. Melypr1985 said 76 days. That seems forever. I have also heard 5 weeks. Should I still treat the tank with the reef safe "Ich attack" or quit that and they will go away without fish to host on?

Sorry for all of the questions. Just trying to make things right.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

It will go away without a host. The 76 days covers everything possible and for the longest reported time it ever survived. Do less and you run the risk of starting that clock all over again. Corals should be fine during fallow time, so maybe focus on that?

It stinks to start off this way, but moving forward, I suggest asking questions here and treating those suggestions with MUCH more weight than any you receive from friends or store employees/owners.

I would take advice from Melyphr and Humblefish as gospel. They know their stuff.

 

[Clownreef]

There are too many wrong things here. Your system was rushed and your friend should be fired or not be allowed to sell people anything.

1. Is there any kind of test that will give me more accurate numbers at home? I have the strip tests. I also have the ammonia test that I have been using on a daily basis. But that seems to be completely stable. And all of the other numbers look fine.

Salifert makes excellent test kits.


2. Also, can I go ahead and try to grow some corals while I am running fallow? I only have one so far, and with the fish being on quarantine, it would give me something fun to do in the main tank, but I don't know if that is OK or not I have one mushroom doing really really well.

No. Your tank is incredibly new. It's a two month old system with a large list of casualties.


4. Melypr1985 said 76 days. That seems forever. I have also heard 5 weeks. Should I still treat the tank with the reef safe "Ich attack" or quit that and they will go away without fish to host on?

I honestly think you should do a bit of research about ich. There is no reef-safe, magical cure. Patience is essential in reef keeping. This hobby isn't about instant gratification.

 

[Joey waid]

I can't believe you have made it this far. So many things done wrong, really nothing was right that I have read. Good news is you're at the right site and I'm sure everybody here will help you get it going again..

 

[Clownreef]

Whoever was advising her at the store needs to be fired. Zero research was made before setting up the system. I am amazed at how badly educated store employees can be. No cycling, someone said the salt would take care of it all? Then proceeded to add a ton of fish to a system that couldn't handle the bio load? Of course they were going to die..

Im not trying to be an #$%@! but there is zero excuse for not doing solid research beforehand.

 

[Mini Coop]

I seriously could cry, I'm so thankful to have found this group. He is a really good friend, and without him I wouldn't have the amazing set up that I have, but I think he cut corners and as a result I'm paying for it. He has worked in the aquarium business for over 9 years. That is why I trusted what he said. The original set up and first water change were with tap and no issues. My saving grace was that all of my live rock was really really well cured.

 

[Clownreef]

He gave you terrible/inaccurate advice that killed quite a bit of fish.

Did the tank even cycle?

 

[Mini Coop]

He gave you terrible/inaccurate advice that killed quite a bit of fish.

Did the tank even cycle?

We cycled for 2 weeks. He tested the water then, said it was perfect and ready, so and we added 2 clowns.

2 weeks later added sailfin, fox face, blue jaw trigger, cleaner shrimp and serpent star fish (no clue if he is alive...he hides).

Then 3 weeks after that added all the other casualties. I feel like a terrible person having killed all of these beautiful fish. He had never even ever mentioned a quarantine tank. Never heard of it until I started researching here on my own when I got ich trying to do everything I could to Dave them. I'm so devastated. But determined to make my reef a relaxing and enjoyable home for fish that I intended it to be in the first place.

 

[Clownreef]

Tanks don't cycle in two weeks. Your fish probably died because you added a massive dump of ammonia on a tank that was cycling. Let me explain:

You started a saltwater aquarium with tap water and cured live rock. There was NOTHING in the tank to start the cycling process. When your incredibly misinformed friend tested the water two weeks after you started the tank with tap water and CURED rock it didn't register ANY ammonia because there wasn't any in there to begin with. You added those poor fish, they started creating waste, and kickstarted the cycle. While that happened you dumped more fish in there...and they all died.

I would honestly stop, and read about the cycling process, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites..pretty much the nitrogen cycle. Please don't buy any more animals for a few months.

 

[Clownreef]

Fish die because of the lack of chemistry knowledge. This is all chemistry.

 

[Neptune 555]

I have learned more through my failures.. then my success... I am so sorry for you experience. With some patience and reading you can have a beautiful tank!!! I proposes that you now let your tank sit fallow for 80 days. Keep feeding the tank it.. keep a clean up crew in the tank... and give it a proper cycle. Treat your fish who have velvet/ich in a QT tank. Start Again slowly. Do some reading on good nutrition. I propose the best way to a healthy tank is to QT fish against disease AND to feed fish the proper nutrition to help them fight against disease.

Good Luck!!

Neptune

 

[Humblefish]

@Jena Cooper The good news is you have an opportunity here to hit the reset button and just start over. Nothing is so broken that it can't be fixed.

I would start by reading this entire article: http://www.reefedition.com/291/

I also list two books in this thread I feel every hobbyist should read cover to cover: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-learn-this-hobby.251943/