Cycling

[Fish Fan]

Lol, well there's a hot topic, like it's always been.

For sure! Thanks for your replies to my questions!

 

[Garf]

For sure! Thanks for your replies to my questions!

Whilst replying I've been watching this bloke on YT. Just when I think I understand what he's talking about he baffles the hell out of me, a little like reefing. I do like the philosophy indicated on the screen but I know it's not really what it seems, lol.

 

[library 112]

A cycle when two things occur. . . . when ammonia rises then falls and holds a steady reading of Zero for at least 5 days and nitrate rises and falls and holds at 20 or below- then you are cycled.
Did you add ammonia chloride or something to increase ammonia initially ?
If you are using API kits , I would suggest taking a water sample to a trusted LFS and see what numbers they come up with and to compare with yours then you will know where your readings are at.
A typical cycle period is 7-21 days with dry rock and you want to stock very slowly to allow denitrifying bacteria to keep up with new bioload as tank matures

Thanks yeah used dr tims. I’m ghost feeding with plankton and some small frozen food

 

[library 112]

And no part of me was trying to be hostile or augmentative, I'm sincerely asking. I remember starting tanks this way. I was out of the hobby for a long while, and I'm just getting going again, but I researched a lot about fishless cycling (again, I am only assuming this is what the OP is doing), and I'm just not sure that adding fish food is a good idea at this point, especially with the already elevated ammonia levels. I'm not an expert here at all, and I don't claim to be, so please let me know if I'm missing something.

I was told to add some food by lfs and I’m starting to wonder my self if I should back that off

 

[Fish Fan]

I was told to add some food by lfs and I’m starting to wonder my self if I should back that off

Adding food was a thing before we had bottled ammonium chloride to use. The food breaks down, ammonia goes up, and that feeds your cycle.

Are you using bottled ammonium chloride?

I would say to back off on any additional sources of ammonia, both bottled and from adding food. It looks like you're already at about the maximum concentration of ammonia (2.50ppm), anymore can damage the biofilter bacteria and be counterproductive.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert here, others may offer better advice. But I don't understand what adding food will do for you if you're already using bottled ammonium chloride (and I'm still only assuming you are).

 

[vetteguy53081]

@vetteguy53081 Do you see any reason to add fish food to this tank, assuming the OP is dosing ammonium chloride and already at >2.50ppm?

If no ammonia added, yes you can allowing it to decay

I was told to add some food by lfs and I’m starting to wonder my self if I should back that off

Yes and then see if ammonia starts to drop every 24-48 hrs.

 

[Fish Fan]

If no ammonia added, yes you can allowing it to decay

Thank you for your reply. So if the OP is using bottled ammonium chloride, is there any further need or reason to add fish food too?

 

[Garf]

I was told to add some food by lfs and I’m starting to wonder my self if I should back that off

Try adding a little phyto to new salt water, then test that for ammonia, if you don't mind. I'm assuming it's dead, not live?

 

[PotatoPig]

So first saltwater aquarium and currently at day 15 cycling. Used dr Tim’s in my 112 that I set up with mostly dry rock and one small live rock. At 7 days I registered 2.5+ Ammonia (Hanna won’t go higher) and 2.5 nitrate. I did water change and took measurements ammonia still 2.5+ nitrates now 5.5 and diatoms appeared about 2 days ago. Trying to be patient but with ammonia staying that high for day 15 starting to worry. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks

If your nitrates are rising you have some sort of cycle going on, as that’s the only way they should be getting in the tank. So that’s good.

If you’re worried the ammonia was mis-dosed or there was another source that’s added more then try take a water sample, dilute it by 50% and then test that. This will allow you to test concentrations above the test sensitivity range, then just double the results to find your ammonia concentration.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you for your reply. So if the OP is using bottled ammonium chloride, is there any further need or reason to add fish food too?

no

 

[Fish Fan]

no

Thank you, that's what I was trying to figure out.

 

[library 112]

If your nitrates are rising you have some sort of cycle going on, as that’s the only way they should be getting in the tank. So that’s good.

If you’re worried the ammonia was mis-dosed or there was another source that’s added more then try take a water sample, dilute it by 50% and then test that. This will allow you to test concentrations above the test sensitivity range, then just double the results to find your ammonia concentration.

Thank you that’s a great idea. It dropped today though reading 2.19 now

 

[library 112]

Try adding a little phyto to new salt water, then test that for ammonia, if you don't mind. I'm assuming it's dead, not live?

It’s live phyto

 

[library 112]

Adding food was a thing before we had bottled ammonium chloride to use. The food breaks down, ammonia goes up, and that feeds your cycle.

Are you using bottled ammonium chloride?

I would say to back off on any additional sources of ammonia, both bottled and from adding food. It looks like you're already at about the maximum concentration of ammonia (2.50ppm), anymore can damage the biofilter bacteria and be counterproductive.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert here, others may offer better advice. But I don't understand what adding food will do for you if you're already using bottled ammonium chloride (and I'm still only assuming you are).

Thanks dropped this morning and I only dosed ammonia once

 

[Garf]

It’s live phyto

I would love to know if this is messing with your test to any extent. Presumably there would be at least a little interference from excess f/2. Are you growing it yourself?

Anyone else on here growing phyto and got an ammonia test?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks dropped this morning and I only dosed ammonia once

Stop adding ammonia and wait until the ammonia test results are 0.

 

[brandon429]

your cycle is interesting because you've surpassed the known wait time already charted that covers bacterial deposition from bottle bac alone, and live rock transfer bacteria alone/much less paired and fed.

ergo, if you change out all the water you're leaving behind bioslicks with bacteria and you're not worrying about having to make a bunch of wastewater read as compliant on kits we can likely find involved in tank misread events by searching.

if you do a full water change, and never test for ammonia and nitrite again on this system, you'll be off and reefing. if you choose to still test a bunch of mixed wastewater, then expect a long wait to arrive exactly where you are now.

the benefit of using updated cycling science is that by knowing your start date exact vs open-ended wait, you can spend all this time reading about fallow and qt disease preps in the disease forum, before you make use of your ready tank. if you make use of your ability to carry fish, which is in place, then you become part of the disease forum help threads in eight months and it wouldn't matter if you did wait until all the nitrite and ammonia was zero three more weeks from now.

your tank can't be made safer for fish by waiting any longer than you've waited. change the water, your cycle is done if you had rocks stacked in the system as we do.

there are no examples of a fifteen day failed cycle using blended live and dry rock and bottle bac and feed on this entire site, that factors in making a call about your cycle in my opinion.

waiting longer can't make your tank safer for fish. actual fish preps are what make it safe

post a full tank shot was curious on the ratios

 

[library 112]

I would love to know if this is messing with your test to any extent. Presumably there would be at least a little interference from excess f/2. Are you growing it yourself?

Anyone else on here growing phyto and got an ammonia test?

No, LFS has it and recommended it when I went in. Their recommendations were 50ml phytoplankton, one tiny food cube and then he gave me some pebbles out of a tank to put in my sump.

 

[brandon429]

All that mix, along with the ammonia and bacteria sourcing and time

Cycled. But you need to shear off all the packed in wastewater

And stop the phyto for a while you’re about to algae forest the setup, keep that for later. Don’t buy any for a while the tank is not stocked with phyto consumers


Post a tank pic

 

[Fish Fan]

No, LFS has it and recommended it when I went in. Their recommendations were 50ml phytoplankton, one tiny food cube and then he gave me some pebbles out of a tank to put in my sump.

In your first post you mentioned that you're using Dr. Tim's. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think you said if it was his One and Only bottled bacteria or his ammonium chloride or both (I'm assuming it's both?). Maybe I missed it, but I don't think you've let us know. Please let us know if you're using Dr. Tim's One and Only and his ammonium chloride, I think this would help others (read: smarter than me) better help you.

In my non-expert opinion:

• If you're using Dr. Tim's One and Only AND his ammonium chloride, you don't need anything else.
• If you've added Dr. Tim's One and Only but are NOT adding his ammonium chloride, then by all means add your cube of food and the phyto.

We know at the least you added some rock rubble from your LFS's existing system, so you inoculated your tank with the desirable bacteria, which are producing the nitrates you're seeing, so you're fine either way. Patients is all that's needed now. By the time we all go back and forth hashing this out, your tank will be cycled ;-)

Keep in mind, some have reported that their dry rock and sand caused an increase in ammonia, and I seem to have experienced this first hand. It is thought to be at least possible that even dry rock can have organic material in or on it, which starts to decay once wet, causing an ammonia spike.

Additionally, I'm not sure how you're measuring your ammonia. Our hobby-level test kits are not lab grade science, and many R2R members will call out the inaccuracy of ammonia tests including the popular API and Red Sea kits. In my opinion, all these hobby-level kits are best for offering an indication of what's going on or to identify trends over time, not to establish a hard number.

But my point is, if you're test kit is telling you that you are at or around 2.50ppm ammonia, you are at the high safe limit for the biofilter, and you should stop adding ammonia from any source, whatever it is - ammonium chloride, fish food, your rock, etc. In time, your biofilter will catch up.

I hope that helps!