Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[Dan_P]

IMO, it is evident that a great many people claim success with Prime because they just do not know how much ammonia would have been needed to cause a problem.

^^^ which then brings up the question whether in a brightly lit aquarium like a reef tank and a cautious stocking rate, is ammonia like nitrite really not an issue in certain saltwater systems? An aquarium packed with fish, I think ammonia needs to be managed. An aquarium packed with coral, ammonia accumulation can be ignored. An aquarium packed with coral and a clean up crew, ditto. Ditto if a few small fish added AND coral are growing.

 

[kecked]

I got to page 7 and came to the end. I used prime last few days for an emergency see my thread if you like. Here is what did happen. Fish were breathing really hard so I put in a 5x dose in 60 gal tank with 4ppm ammonia preprime. Fish were much better almost in a hour. Ammonia level never changed but ph dropped to 7.85 and alk jumped to 22! Prime works as a ph lowering additive. That sure does detoxify ammonia only it’s not a direct effect. That’s my opinion. So 50% water change twice and full bottle of brightwell didn’t fix it. I added 50 ml of cycle and NaOH to bring ph back to 8 and bingo in 6 hours the nitrates rose to 10 ppm. Ps while dousing the brightwell my nitrates plummeted from 10 to zero and phosphate dropped with it. Once nitrates were gone phosphate rose. Added gfo sometime as cycle. Whatever. Anyway while prime seemed to help me my water chemistry is really hosed and I’m going wait a week and do another 50% and hope things stabilize.

 

[taricha]

Ammonia level never changed but ph dropped to 7.85 and alk jumped to 22! Prime works as a ph lowering additive.

Big doses can create a very modest pH drop like what you observed. (As would vinegar dose or HCl or breathing into your skimmer.)

The alk seems really weird. How are you measuring that?

 

[kecked]

Big doses can create a very modest pH drop like what you observed. (As would vinegar dose or HCl or breathing into your skimmer.)

The alk seems really weird. How are you measuring that?

Hey been awhile. I’m using the Hanna tester. Weird stuff happened. I mean having nitrates drop and phosphate drop like that with alk showing so high. I don’t believe my test kits at the moment. I did two 50% changes in three days. Why would a modest adddition of NaOH suddenly fix it all? I bet I made the sodium salt of the thio compounds in the prime. Nothing really changed I just got the interfering item out of circulation. Fish seem totally fine. I tested the water change first and it was fine. Think I’ll try fresh salt water with prime on the kits and see if they go nutz. Had not thought to try that. That 10pm drop in nitrate….well guess what I have 10 ppm again now after the base addition. I didn’t measure it but I added about5-10 pellets in a quart of water and just slowly added it to raise the ph back to 8. No coral so figured good enough till the ammonia goes away.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I got to page 7 and came to the end. I used prime last few days for an emergency see my thread if you like. Here is what did happen. Fish were breathing really hard so I put in a 5x dose in 60 gal tank with 4ppm ammonia preprime. Fish were much better almost in a hour. Ammonia level never changed but ph dropped to 7.85 and alk jumped to 22! Prime works as a ph lowering additive. That sure does detoxify ammonia only it’s not a direct effect. That’s my opinion. So 50% water change twice and full bottle of brightwell didn’t fix it. I added 50 ml of cycle and NaOH to bring ph back to 8 and bingo in 6 hours the nitrates rose to 10 ppm. Ps while dousing the brightwell my nitrates plummeted from 10 to zero and phosphate dropped with it. Once nitrates were gone phosphate rose. Added gfo sometime as cycle. Whatever. Anyway while prime seemed to help me my water chemistry is really hosed and I’m going wait a week and do another 50% and hope things stabilize.

FWIW, Seachem specifically claims a pH drop is not how they believe Prime works.

 

[kecked]

I hear your fish turn to gold too. I’ve never seen such messed up chemistry or messed up testing. One thing I believe is my ph meter.

 

[Garf]

I hear your fish turn to gold too. I’ve never seen such messed up chemistry or messed up testing. One thing I believe is my ph meter.

I found this claim interesting. The appropriate dose appeared to reduce my tank water by 0.1pH units. Overdosing it massively caused pH to drop into the 5s.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I hear your fish turn to gold too. I’ve never seen such messed up chemistry or messed up testing. One thing I believe is my ph meter.

I don’t doubt it. Seachem generally does not display significant chemical knowledge.

“ It is non-acidic and will not impact pH. “

Seachem - Prime

www.seachem.com

 

[Malcontent]

FWIW...

 

[kecked]

If it contains sulfur eventually it’s acidic In my experience. So just tested and leaving everything alone now I still get 20alk but ammonia is 0-0.1 hard to tell on api, nitrate dropped from ten to 5.7, phosphate is still zero though that’s gfo working. I know my old rock is leeching. Ph holding in at 8. Being a fish on,y for now that’s going be fine. I’ll let it go a few Weeks and I think it will stabilize. I’ll not change out gfo and see what happens. These rocks are 15 years old. Anyway im not sure what prime did other than increase alk and lower ph. I would not use it again. There is no better solution than large water changes in my opinion. I did my experiment this morning using fresh saltwater and dosing ammonium chloride. Didn’t mess with test kits. Added prime and oh brother nothing was right. Ph went off, alk jumped, ammonia stayed same. I dosed nitrate and that looked way low. I have no way to nitrite but I think that would read low too. Someone with time should repeat this Unless it was on pages 7-32. Got tired of the flame wars.

 

[kecked]

FWIW...

That was truly a useless document. All we know for sure is it’s heavier than water. Vapor pressure is just water. Vapor density is twice water. Ie it’s super dilute. I might do a titration on it just to see.

 

[taricha]

I found this claim interesting. The appropriate dose appeared to reduce my tank water by 0.1pH units.

This is similar to what Dan and I found. The largest dose that is explicitly allowed in the direction is 5x, and I found that it reduced the pH of my water by 0.1 to 0.2 units. To me that's a small enough amount that their claim of it not affecting pH is not too objectionable to me, for saltwater. Freshwater though....

I also can't buy that this small pH lowering is the intended mechanism of action. Because 1) they disavow it in the product information, and 2) if that was the intention then you would put a little actual acid in the bottle and lower the saltwater pH by 0.5 pH units and provide actual significant relief from NH3.

 

[taricha]

Anyway im not sure what prime did other than increase alk and lower ph.

I'll give it 0.1% chance that the observed huge Alk increase holds up to a regular acid titration test.

 

[Garf]

I'll give it 0.1% chance that the observed huge Alk increase holds up to a regular acid titration test.

10x appropriate dose had no effect on Salifert Alk in my tank water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it contains sulfur eventually it’s acidic In my experience.

There are lots of sulfur compounds that do not lower pH. Sulfate doesn’t lower pH, for example.

 

[taricha]

10x appropriate dose had no effect on Salifert Alk in my tank water.

Thanks. That makes sense. I can imagine interference with @kecked hanna alk test much more likely than a real doubling of alk.

 

[kecked]

Prime is innocent. I figured it out. I mixed fresh saltwater from my mix and tested it. 9.6. I then added a full ml of bacteria cycle to be exact. Jumped to 15. It’s not real. I think there is something that interferes. I tried the same experiment with prime and nothing happened. Remember I dumped a bottle and a half of bacteria in my tank to boost my ammonia processing. Now what and why this affects my Hanna I don’t know. I didn’t also check ph but I should. So prime is innocent Of Messing my tank chem up. I’ll try a real titration tomorrow at work.

 

[blecki]

The alk seems really weird. How are you measuring that?

It's not weird in the context of nitrate changes. The conversion of ammonia to nitrate binds alk, lowering it. He dosed something that eliminated his nitrate; all that bound alk was released in the process.

 

[kecked]

Ph of cycle is 7.85. So you’re Likely right. But why would adding cycle to fresh saltwater raise alkalinity. It’s not a ph thing either as I measured the ph of cycle. My calcium and magnesium remain unknown. Anyway this has nothing to do with prime so I’ll step out of the thread.

 

[blecki]

It wasn't adding the quick cycle that raised it, that was a side effect of nitrate being consumed.