DON'T add LR to your DT without letting it sit

[tutmatt3]

**DISCLAIMER - YOU CAN GET ICH FROM LIVE ROCK INTRODUCED TO THE TANK

Hey guys,

Well.. looks like my QT days turned out to be a waste due to my stupidity 2 weeks ago. After my previous tank had a leak & I had to transfer everything, I also ended up thoroughly rinsing the sand. Put everything back into the new tank, and all was well.

I got this genius idea that "since I probably killed all the bacteria on my sand, why not add a few pieces of Live Rock to bring in additional good bacteria, as well as coraline to help seed the tank more [all previous rock was dry rock]"

So I chanced it... I bought about 2-3lbs of LR from the LFS's rock bin, and added them to the tank. I know I should have waited the 76 days 'just in case' they came with ich or anything, but I was stupid, took the gamble, and everything went down from there.

Day after - one of my wrasses would have random spasms. Would swim uncontrollably, have a spasm, and repeat. This lasted about 3x days, and that was that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well... the moment you've all been waiting for.......
BAM! ICH hits my blue tang. Few big spots (thought it might have been something other than ich, since these spots were big). Few days later, some feel off, some didn't, but more appeared.
It's now at the point where there's quite a bit salt-sized spots on the fish. One eye developed a bit of glossyness in an area, and a bunch of scratch marks on the body since the fish is swimming around scratching itself on everything.
My desjardini was looking good, but today I noticed quite a few salt-sized spots as well.
No other fish is showing signs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At the moment, I am feeding selcon soaked seaweed & frozen food. UV is currently offline for a separate reason, but aimed to come back on in a week. That's pretty much what I have going on. Can't stop beating myself up for adding in the rocks, but what's done is done.

I don't have current plans to QT all 7x fish, let alone the equipment for a tank that big, and leaving the DT fallow for the 76 days. So at the moment, I will observe & see how things go. I was on the verse of tearing the tank down a week ago (un-ich related, just simply due to time investment & unsure if I wanted to stay in the hobby), so I know I don't have the energy & willingness to put all the fish through medication again, and go through the fallow period. If that's the case, breaking the tank down would be a wiser choice for me @ this current moment in my life.

Just needed to share the experience with you guys, and let you know that yes... indeed ich (and probably some other parasites) can & will tag along on stupid rock

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

I feel like the chances of what you are describing actually happening are very very slim. What else was in the LFS bin besides the rock you bought? How long had it been there? What treatments and for how long did your fish go through before being put in this tank?

 

[ChiCity]

**DISCLAIMER - YOU CAN GET ICH FROM LIVE ROCK INTRODUCED TO THE TANK

Hey guys,

Well.. looks like my QT days turned out to be a waste due to my stupidity 2 weeks ago. After my previous tank had a leak & I had to transfer everything, I also ended up thoroughly rinsing the sand. Put everything back into the new tank, and all was well.

I got this genius idea that "since I probably killed all the bacteria on my sand, why not add a few pieces of Live Rock to bring in additional good bacteria, as well as coraline to help seed the tank more [all previous rock was dry rock]"

So I chanced it... I bought about 2-3lbs of LR from the LFS's rock bin, and added them to the tank. I know I should have waited the 76 days 'just in case' they came with ich or anything, but I was stupid, took the gamble, and everything went down from there.

Day after - one of my wrasses would have random spasms. Would swim uncontrollably, have a spasm, and repeat. This lasted about 3x days, and that was that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well... the moment you've all been waiting for.......
BAM! ICH hits my blue tang. Few big spots (thought it might have been something other than ich, since these spots were big). Few days later, some feel off, some didn't, but more appeared.
It's now at the point where there's quite a bit salt-sized spots on the fish. One eye developed a bit of glossyness in an area, and a bunch of scratch marks on the body since the fish is swimming around scratching itself on everything.
My desjardini was looking good, but today I noticed quite a few salt-sized spots as well.
No other fish is showing signs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At the moment, I am feeding selcon soaked seaweed & frozen food. UV is currently offline for a separate reason, but aimed to come back on in a week. That's pretty much what I have going on. Can't stop beating myself up for adding in the rocks, but what's done is done.

I don't have current plans to QT all 7x fish, let alone the equipment for a tank that big, and leaving the DT fallow for the 76 days. So at the moment, I will observe & see how things go. I was on the verse of tearing the tank down a week ago (un-ich related, just simply due to time investment & unsure if I wanted to stay in the hobby), so I know I don't have the energy & willingness to put all the fish through medication again, and go through the fallow period. If that's the case, breaking the tank down would be a wiser choice for me @ this current moment in my life.

Just needed to share the experience with you guys, and let you know that yes... indeed ich (and probably some other parasites) can & will tag along on stupid rock

The chances of that happening are quite narrow...
But still a possibility.
Ich is ich, so I can't speak for that 100%
But what I will say is it's always best to start with dry (like brs pukani) rock to avoid any hitchhikiers altogether!

 

[tutmatt3]

Yeah, I thought chances were slim too, which is why I gambled it. Nothing besides rock were in the bin - but knowing this store, I have a good feeling they move rock quite a bit, from their main sale display tank (which I've seen all kinds of diseases in) into this one.

I started w/ full dry to avoid them, and was super caution on my QT process and introduction of anything into the tank. And even after fish have gone through into the DT, there have been accidental stress factors that did not lead to any visible ich (forgot to turn fan back on, temp spiked to 84+ from 77).
Even during my tank transfer when I know 100% I stressed the hell out of everything (wasn't the smoothest of transfers), there still wasn't any signs of any disease kicking in.

The coincidence cannot be overlooked that after 8+ months of smooth sailing no disease, after I introduce some LR from the LFS, that ich hits heavy. I'm almost 100% certain (so what, 99.9?) that it came from there.

---------
As far as treatments, all fish undergone 2x sessions of prazi and full 30day copper treatments. 2x Wrasses did get added months ago which only undergone 17x days of copper - but they were immediate transfers into the DT, so any ich still in cyst form woulda been left behind in the QT



At this point, it is what it is, so it looks like 'ich management' will be all I can do for the time being

 

[melypr1985]

Ich can indeed come into your tank on live rock. At my shop the live rock bin has no fish in it, or really anything else but rock. In that case any ich that was on the rocks would starve out without a fish present to feed on. However, it would also depend on how long the rock had been in there..... if somebody brought in live rock for trade and it had only been there for a few days then you can definitely get whatever parasites that person had in their tank. Care should be taken with all wet additions to your display.

 

[tutmatt3]

Ich can indeed come into your tank on live rock. At my shop the live rock bin has no fish in it, or really anything else but rock. In that case any ich that was on the rocks would starve out without a fish present to feed on. However, it would also depend on how long the rock had been in there..... if somebody brought in live rock for trade and it had only been there for a few days then you can definitely get whatever parasites that person had in their tank. Care should be taken with all wet additions to your display.

Yup, and lesson learned.

Now the potters angel which showed no visible spots is scratching itself.

Guess there really won't be any peace of mind without re-treating everything & going fallow. I know it's tough to say, but what are typical fatality rates through these episodes? I know much if it has to depend on the individual fishes immune system, but just checking if this is something I should observe for a little bit, or action needed now

 

[melypr1985]

Yup, and lesson learned.

Now the potters angel which showed no visible spots is scratching itself.

Guess there really won't be any peace of mind without re-treating everything & going fallow. I know it's tough to say, but what are typical fatality rates through these episodes? I know much if it has to depend on the individual fishes immune system, but just checking if this is something I should observe for a little bit, or action needed now

You already know the answer I think. I'll go ahead and say it though. With ich, you could potentially just observe for a bit. With velvet, you gotta act as quickly as you can to avoid loss. Sorry for the situation you're in

 

[tutmatt3]

I completely forgot about velvet... ugh
That may be what I have due to the sheer #s that hit. I took a better look @ the angel as well, it doesn't have many spots on the body, but fins def do

 

[ngoodermuth]

Ich can definitely hit tangs in large volumes also, but if the spots are dropping off and coming back in less than 3 days...it's velvet. Of course, you'd have to watch specific spots and remember exactly where they are which is tough when there are tons...

Swimming into flow, sensitivity to light, and heavy breathing are also symptoms of velvet.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this...I'm working through my second round at the moment. It's not fun, but I've had wipe-outs in the past so I'm doing what I can to save my fish. You might still have some losses either way, but at least treating you won't regret not trying... :/

 

[tutmatt3]

Oh man, yeah that doesn't sound fun at all. Well so far, just tons of scratching from both tangs & moderate scratching from the angel.
Both clowns & both wrasse show no issues.

 

[tutmatt3]

Thought to update all - so far the parasite has reduced drastically. After this pic, it got even worse, then the next day better, and today about 80% healed up.
Seaweed + selcon can do wonders. Not saying this is the right move to make, but if more time immediate time was available I would def set up a hospital tank

 

[tutmatt3]

Hah.. you guys were right. I won't be able to stand looking at them like this -___-. Fish looks good, then fish looks worse, back and forth. QT & fallow it is!

Alright, so here's the question. With DT going fallow 76x days, but fish only need to be in copper for 30x days - what's the best way going about this?
I have 1x set of equipment to house the 7x fish. Obviously when day 30 is done, there is another month and a half left. Is it ok to remove all copper from the water & let them stay in that tank?
Reason I am asking is because if one of those 76x day ich cysts is in QT - it could possible hatch after 30x days of copper, and reinfect the fish, right?

ORR - would it be better to have QT water already ready to go @ 2ppm coppersafe, so that way any ICH that falls off the fish will die before it is able to form a cyst in the QT.
Thoughts?

------

Side note - anything I should do to prep my reef for fallow? I have coral foods (reef chili, and oyster feast) as well as some aminos (kz phols xtra / acro power) which I can use a few times a week, and even have nitrate and phosphate I can dose IF needed.
Just checking if there is anything else I need to know for my tank if indeed fish will be missing / in addition to ghost feeding to keep bacteria going.

Thanks yallll

 

[Humblefish]

With DT going fallow 76x days, but fish only need to be in copper for 30x days - what's the best way going about this?
I have 1x set of equipment to house the 7x fish. Obviously when day 30 is done, there is another month and a half left. Is it ok to remove all copper from the water & let them stay in that tank?
Reason I am asking is because if one of those 76x day ich cysts is in QT - it could possible hatch after 30x days of copper, and reinfect the fish, right?

You are correct in assuming 30 days of copper is not foolproof. So, after 30 days of copper treatment you have two options:

1. Observe the fish to ensure the parasite has been fully eradicated.
2. Move the fish to another QT (at least 10 feet away); thereby transferring the fish away from any unhatched tomonts (in the original treatment tank.)

Most strains of ich complete their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. In a perfect world we would treat for 72 days just to be sure, but I doubt most fish would survive that.

ORR - would it be better to have QT water already ready to go @ 2ppm coppersafe, so that way any ICH that falls off the fish will die before it is able to form a cyst in the QT.
Thoughts?

Copper has only been proven to successfully target the free swimming stage; it killing the protomont has never been proven.

Side note - anything I should do to prep my reef for fallow? I have coral foods (reef chili, and oyster feast) as well as some aminos (kz phols xtra / acro power) which I can use a few times a week, and even have nitrate and phosphate I can dose IF needed.
Just checking if there is anything else I need to know for my tank if indeed fish will be missing / in addition to ghost feeding to keep bacteria going.

Keep your CUC/inverts well fed, and monitor nitrates/phosphates closely. If either one of those come crashing down due to lack of nutrients some of your corals may suffer as a result.

 

[tutmatt3]

You are correct in assuming 30 days of copper is not foolproof. So, after 30 days of copper treatment you have two options:

1. Observe the fish to ensure the parasite has been fully eradicated.
2. Move the fish to another QT (at least 10 feet away); thereby transferring the fish away from any unhatched tomonts (in the original treatment tank.)

Most strains of ich complete their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. In a perfect world we would treat for 72 days just to be sure, but I doubt most fish would survive that.

Copper has only been proven to successfully target the free swimming stage; it killing the protomont has never been proven.

Keep your CUC/inverts well fed, and monitor nitrates/phosphates closely. If either one of those come crashing down due to lack of nutrients some of your corals may suffer as a result.

Copy that and copy that, and also copy that.

1) Since I do not have another QT set up, nor was really planning on acquiring one - would it be mega unwise to wait until ~day 46 prior to starting copper treatment? That way when 30x days are done, fish are ready to hop back into DT?
Sounds pretty unwise just typing it out.. since they are infected & may stress during a transfer, treating asap would be best >_>

2) I'm sure there's a lot more to "nutrients" from fish waste in addition to nits/phos - but would dosing nitrates / potassium be a bad work-around?

3) Full monitoring will be difficult in my QT set up - since I am using a 27gallon black bin to house all the fish. Top down views will be easy, but inspecting a non-copper version for signs of ich reappearing would be quite difficult, since I have no side views.
Thats why the 30day copper then straight to DT (after full fallow that is) was the plan I had in mind. Would go get a proper tank for viewing, but I'm sure my parents will disown me the moment they see yet another tank enter the house :x

 

[tutmatt3]

You know.. the idea of holding off on the main ich treatment until mid-fallow is an interesting idea. Of course it's not wise to hold off treating fish for 1.5 months, just for convenience, & obviously this can be a riskier route - and less forgiving because "I had the fish in the qt, but refused to treat them asap out of concern for cost/efficiency"

But.... are there any methods that could be explored to pro-long full therapeutic treatment? I'm sure those methods would be similar to ich management in a DT (UV, vitamins, pristine water conditions), but is there anything else? Lowering salinity? 1ppm coppersafe levels (my lfs does this on all their tanks, not sure if it helps?)

Looking forward to any input, as it would definitely be really convenient to time end of fall w/ end of copper. But.. as is with this hobby, if it sounds too good to be true, it prob is haha

 

[Humblefish]

1ppm coppersafe levels (my lfs does this on all their tanks, not sure if it helps?)

Your LFS is doing a great disservice to their customers and I'll tell you why:

When diseased fish are kept in subtherapeutic copper, some of the free swimmers die but not all. The survivors who have been exposed to copper (but it did not kill them) may now develop resistance. So you may be buying a fish with ich/velvet that is now a copper resistant strain.

 

[tutmatt3]

Your LFS is doing a great disservice to their customers and I'll tell you why:

When diseased fish are kept in subtherapeutic copper, some of the free swimmers die but not all. The survivors who have been exposed to copper (but it did not kill them) may now develop resistance. So you may be buying a fish with ich/velvet that is now a copper resistant strain.

Yeah, I had the same thoughts. Just like w/ bacteria & antibiotics.

I can name 5x LFS that do so, which is a shame since obviously its done in efforts of sale.

So I take it there isn't much I can do besides Healthy diet, and good water conditions if I indeed plan to do 46x days of no-copper, followed by 30x days to end @ the same time as fallow ending, correct?

 

[Humblefish]

So I take it there isn't much I can do besides Healthy diet, and good water conditions if I indeed plan to do 46x days of no-copper, followed by 30x days to end @ the same time as fallow ending, correct?

Using an herbal remedy in the DT might help your fish manage their symptoms until you can treat with copper, but it will do nothing to shorten the fallow period.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I wouldn't hold off on treatment, ich can get out of hand rather quickly...especially after a stressful capture and transfer to QT. I waited too long to start copper in my QT (I was still trying to capture the last two fish) and lost my regal angel because of it. Nearly lost my powder brown too, but he's hanging in there.

If you only have one QT to work with...you can still do the "clean QT" after 30 days, it's just a bit trickier and will take a few hours of work.

Once you are finished with copper, put fish in a temp holding container... a Rubbermaid with a powerhead and heater would work. Tear down the QT completely and clean with vinegar and water, as thoroughly as possible, and soak/scrub all equipment in the same. Then rinse and dry thoroughly. A hairdryer can help speed things along, but you need the tank to be bone-dry. Then refill with new, clean saltwater.

Make sure you monitor ammonia closely. Re-seeding with bottled bacteria and a fresh sponge would help, and as long as you are certain there are no traces of copper remaining you can use prime or another ammonia reducer as needed.

Then, you can continue to observe for the remainder of your fallow period

 

[brandon429]

your thread is a valuable reference for people who study sandbed maintenance in the reef tank

a rinsed bed either requires help to renew or it doesn't...and if it does, those inclusions are potential vectors duly noted. as I read it, tank transfer method is about avoiding those locations of import. I don't keep fish so I wouldn't know about ich we just like the sandbed rinsing part and outcome. people either lose or continue entire systems when delving into sandbeds, well done on the transfer and rinse.