For those that don’t QT, why not

[joec]

Prazi Pro seems like a total waste and ineffective these days.

That has been my experience too, the prazi resistant flukes seem abundant. I've been prophylactially treating with two Fenbendazole 12 hour baths, one week apart and it kills everything. It does not seem to bother the fish one bit

 

[MnFish1]

It is not, but that is semantics. I believe that because it is mostly on tangs and schooling fish and always starts on the lateral line, it is from confinement. Wild fish do not get it. I believe that is because all fish have a lateral line and tangs and schooling fish have a more defined lateral line which is more sensitive to allow those fish to swim right next to each other and not crash. I also believe thats why tangs are a flatter fish, to allow the lateral line to be longer.

Just look at them.

In a tank fish can "feel" the glass around them but can't see it. They know there is something there and they can't get away from it. They also can't get away from the bottom and the surface ,as a tang, or most fish would never swim in 18" deep water. Their lateral line is constantly getting signals from these things and the nerves deteriorate.

In the sea the lateral line just gets signals from the fish next to them which allows them to swim together and fit in crannies in rocks without getting stuck or cut.
Fish can get along just fine with one eye or sometimes no eyes. They can swim perfectly at night and never swim into the glass. It is also impossible to catch a fish with a net unless you cheat and jam him up against a rock or the glass.

Follow a fish in the sea with a net and see if you can catch him without cheating.

Thats why these fish are this shape and not streamlined like fast swimming tuna.
Tuna also swim in schools but they do not swim milometers from each other.

Tuna escape by speed, tangs hide in rocks as they are not the Ferrari's of the sea.

Why do angelfish and discus get it

 

[MnFish1]

It is not, but that is semantics. I believe that because it is mostly on tangs and schooling fish and always starts on the lateral line, it is from confinement. Wild fish do not get it. I believe that is because all fish have a lateral line and tangs and schooling fish have a more defined lateral line which is more sensitive to allow those fish to swim right next to each other and not crash. I also believe thats why tangs are a flatter fish, to allow the lateral line to be longer.

Just look at them.

In a tank fish can "feel" the glass around them but can't see it. They know there is something there and they can't get away from it. They also can't get away from the bottom and the surface ,as a tang, or most fish would never swim in 18" deep water. Their lateral line is constantly getting signals from these things and the nerves deteriorate.

In the sea the lateral line just gets signals from the fish next to them which allows them to swim together and fit in crannies in rocks without getting stuck or cut.
Fish can get along just fine with one eye or sometimes no eyes. They can swim perfectly at night and never swim into the glass. It is also impossible to catch a fish with a net unless you cheat and jam him up against a rock or the glass.

Follow a fish in the sea with a net and see if you can catch him without cheating.

Thats why these fish are this shape and not streamlined like fast swimming tuna.
Tuna also swim in schools but they do not swim milometers from each other.

Tuna escape by speed, tangs hide in rocks as they are not the Ferrari's of the sea.

Ps there is no evidence for what you’re sayi

 

[Paul B]

That is totally correct. There is also no evidence of all the other 300 theories either, But mine makes sense.
There is also no evidence of God but I believe. There is no evidence of big foot, aliens, ghosts, or a lot of other things but many people still believe it.

And I believe I did say it was my "Theory", which means an Idea, not a fact.

 

[AdamB]

I use LRS foods, I soak them in selcon vitamins. The food itself is very healthy as well.

Same here.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

So people that don't QT say that healthy fish with good diets should be able to handle ich with no problems.

Other people say they started QT'ing because ich wiped out all their fish. Does that mean people that have had wipeouts had unhealthy fish? or just a really bad outbreak of ich? maybe an incorrect diagnosis? Can we poll these people to see what and how much they feed their fish?

I'm not trying to insult anyone's fish health. Just trying to learn because I'm considering stopping the QT process myself. I only started to QT in the first place because I had a wipe out and lost most of my fish, but now looking back with more knowledge I'm pretty sure that was velvet and not ich. And now after practicing QT for a while (ttm and copper) I'm starting to think it does more harm than good, but I'm still scared of having another wipeout.

I think the fish in my DT seem pretty healthy, but how do I know?

 

[Squidward]

So people that don't QT say that healthy fish with good diets should be able to handle ich with no problems.

Other people say they started QT'ing because ich wiped out all their fish. Does that mean people that have had wipeouts had unhealthy fish? or just a really bad outbreak of ich? maybe an incorrect diagnosis? Can we poll these people to see what and how much they feed their fish?

I'm not trying to insult anyone's fish health. Just trying to learn because I'm considering stopping the QT process myself. I only started to QT in the first place because I had a wipe out and lost most of my fish, but now looking back with more knowledge I'm pretty sure that was velvet and not ich. And now after practicing QT for a while (ttm and copper) I'm starting to think it does more harm than good, but I'm still scared of having another wipeout.

I think the fish in my DT seem pretty healthy, but how do I know?

Once I learned about TTM, I would never not QT again. I'm not taking a risk to spread something into the DT that could easily be avoided. There's a whole lot more people who don't QT than QT. Don't let their lucky stories discourage you from stopping.

 

[Paul B]

Why do angelfish and discus get it

I think all fish could get it, it's just that schooling fish such as tangs, IMO have a more sensitive lateral line. It's like anyone can get sickle cell anemia but black people are more suseptable to it.
I don't know why and I am guessing, it's just a theory of mine that I came up with a long time ago.

So people that don't QT say that healthy fish with good diets should be able to handle ich with no problems.

A "good diet" is subjective. Many people feel their fish have a good diet because they give their fish a quality flake food or pellet. Some think they add Selcon to frozen food so it is a good diet.

To me, a Good Diet for "immunity" is whole prey like clams, worms or complete fish but those foods should have living bacteria in it along with oil.
Oil is in the liver of prey animals, it is not in "quality flakes or pellets although it may say it on the container. It needs to be fresh IMO.

(Mn, I don't mean run of the mill bacteria that everything has including your hands and dirt. I am talking about the bacteria those prey animals had in their gut including disease causing bacteria)

I am also talking about living parasites. These are needed occasionally, not every meal but ocasionally like clams would carry in their gut.
Eventually parasites will live in an immune tank along with the fish and keep them immune.

Don't let their lucky stories discourage you from stopping.

Squidward, again with the luck. Luck has nothing to do with it. If it does, then as I said I know how to make my own luck. I, or anyone else would not be lucky for almost 50 years.

If your fish are getting sick or dying, it is "your" fault. Not because you were unlucky, but you personally killed those fish through wrong practices. I don't kill fish and have not in decades.
I would never allow my fish to become sick which is why after a very long time I devised this system.

And it has nothing to do with throwing fish into a tank and hope you get lucky. Lucky is hoping your fish can get through quarantine without getting sick.

Intelligence is helping fish strengthen the immune system they were born with and are supposed to use.

I learned most of what I know about fish by spending time with them under water and observing them. The rest of what I know came from experience from when this hobby started a long time ago.
I don't ask that anyone use my system. Quarantine if you like as a lot of people do or throw fish in a tank and hope to get lucky. It's your choice.

 

[Paul B]

I think the fish in my DT seem pretty healthy, but how do I know?

If you have paired fish and they are spawning, you will know. If you have one of a kind and it is cleaning a nest, you will know. If your fish are only dying of old age, you will know.
If you can put any fish in there without quarantining and nothing ever gets sick, you will know.

But if those fish were in quarantine for 72 days, I can tell you they are incomplete fish and can never be really healthy because they have no functioning immune system.

People like that we call cancer treatment survivors and they are not real healthy.
People with no immune systems have to live in sterile envirnments.

I have played Santa Claus in a Children's Cancer hospital for many years. (NYU in Manhattan) Those kids are in quarantine and had their immune system wiped out. If it were not for the fact that they have no hair, many of them look perfectly healthy. But they can't be exposed to even normal air or they can die. They have to be in "Quarantine" until they are again gradually exposed to normal bacteria so they can build up their immunity with the help of powerful drugs.

They can remain in quarantine for their entire lives but no normal food can be eaten, no normal outside air can be breathed, no one can touch them. That is not a normal way to live. And very unfortunately, 40% of them die before they get cured.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

To me, a Good Diet for "immunity" is whole prey like clams, worms or complete fish but those foods should have living bacteria in it along with oil.

My fish eat Rods, LRS, and PE mysis - all frozen. Plus some nori. I've been wanting to start feeding them clams and what not from the grocery store, but do I have to do anything to it first? Like rinse it, cut it up, etc? Or can I just drop it in whole, straight from the store, and let them pick at it? If so, that doesn't seem like it be that hard to do once a week. It gets a little intimidating though when I see the threads about people who make gourmet fresh fish blends with ton of stuff all mixed up in a blender. I don't have enough fish for all that.

Also, can marine fish eat regular old earth worms from my midwest garden? My dad likes to feed them to his freshwater tank, but I didn't know if they're okay for saltwater tanks too?

 

[Squidward]

Squidward, again with the luck. Luck has nothing to do with it. If it does, then as I said I know how to make my own luck. I, or anyone else would not be lucky for almost 50 years.

If your fish are getting sick or dying, it is "your" fault. Not because you were unlucky, but you personally killed those fish through wrong practices. I don't kill fish and have not in decades.
I would never allow my fish to become sick which is why after a very long time I devised this system.

And it has nothing to do with throwing fish into a tank and hope you get lucky. Lucky is hoping your fish can get through quarantine without getting sick.

You're the exception. I'm referring to the ones playing Russian roulette that has yet to encounter a bad outbreak of ich and velvet.

And I don't prefer to use copper. I only do TTM now. So my fish are not going thru "chemo" like you say.

 

[Dragon52]

Wife, Money, Room, in that order. lol

 

[Paul B]

Fish can eat earthworms and they are a very good food. Even anemones love them.
For the clams, buy live clams, the biggest you can find and freeze them. Open them and shave off paper thin slices sized for your fish. They are also the best food for bubble corals, anemones, crabs and shrimp, besides fish. They will also have the correct bacteria in them and because they are filter feeders, they have everything in their guts that fish need. Clams are my favorite food, for me too.

Squidward, I am sure my tank has been exposed to every kind of disease and parasite there is. They are immune or as you like to say, "Lucky".

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

If you have paired fish and they are spawning, you will know. If you have one of a kind and it is cleaning a nest, you will know. If your fish are only dying of old age, you will know.
If you can put any fish in there without quarantining and nothing ever gets sick, you will know.

But if those fish were in quarantine for 72 days, I can tell you they are incomplete fish and can never be really healthy because they have no functioning immune system.

People like that we call cancer treatment survivors and they are not real healthy.
People with no immune systems have to live in sterile envirnments.

I have played Santa Claus in a Children's Cancer hospital for many years. (NYU in Manhattan) Those kids are in quarantine and had their immune system wiped out. If it were not for the fact that they have no hair, many of them look perfectly healthy. But they can't be exposed to even normal air or they can die. They have to be in "Quarantine" until they are again gradually exposed to normal bacteria so they can build up their immunity with the help of powerful drugs.

They can remain in quarantine for their entire lives but no normal food can be eaten, no normal outside air can be breathed, no one can touch them. That is not a normal way to live. And very unfortunately, 40% of them die before they get cured.

My fish were quarantined, but not for 72 days. Either 14 days of copper, or 14 days of TTM. I never do longer than that. Last one was over a year ago. I suspect there has been cross contamination at some point and that there is ich in the tank but I'm not positive. I don't have pairs, so no spawning from them. My anemones spawn though. What does a fish do when clearing a nest? I don't know if I would realize thats what they're doing, even if they do it. I want to stop QT'ing, but what do you think would happen if I put a fish that happens to have ich in there? Would that allow them to gradually build up their immune system? or would it be too overwhelming and kill them?

 

[Paul B]

These clowns are cleaning a nest here. If I only have one they keep brushing away debris with their tails.


Here they are preparing to spawn.


Those fish are 28 years old and have never been quarantined. They eat clams just about every day and have never been sick.

 

[Paul B]

Loves Dogs, your fish seem to be very healthy. 14 days of quarantine won't do much to harm their immune system. Just keep feeding them the "correct" foods that I mentioned. Worms are great as it almost any live food.

 

[Paul B]

Spawning clownfish don't mean much because clownfish are very healthy and to kill them, you have to run them over with a school bus filled with people coming back from a hot dog eating contest.
They will spawn no matter what you do and they will even change sex to do it. Other fish are harder but every fish will spawn. Some fish just need more room such as egg scatterers.
All bottom dwellers should spawn in a tank if they are healthy.

 

[MnFish1]

Loves Dogs, your fish seem to be very healthy. 14 days of quarantine won't do much to harm their immune system. Just keep feeding them the "correct" foods that I mentioned. Worms are great as it almost any live food.

Im wondering where you're getting the idea that most people 'quarantine fish' for 72 days - especially 72 days with a medication? But - even at 72 days - just to be clear - its not the 'immune system' thats affected - since we know that immunity to CI doesnt start to decline until 180 days? Even at 180 days - the immune system is working fine - but immunity to certain parasites starts to decline .

There is a big difference between someone who has received cancer chemotherapy - and a fish that is in QT (again especially without medication) - Though copper can affect the immune system - chemotherapy can literally destroy the immune system - there is just no comparison

 

[RJKain-777]

I never QTd... but I recently had something wipe out my tank in a matter of 2 weeks. Looked like ICH, maybe velvet. Now my fish are in a QT tank, for 14 days with copper. I will treat all new fish for 14 days to remove any parasites. The cost of fish in Canada, is to expensive to not QT.

Unless Paul B wants to give me a guide to buying healthy fish, as that’s near impossible to get in Canada.

 

[Paul B]

Even at 180 days - the immune system is working fine

I disagree and you can tell the guy who wrote that that I said so.
I am sure I have been keeping fish longer than him and he probably doesn't even have a goldfish tank. Not even fancy goldfish.

RjKain, come on down.