How do you tell a store owner the issue?

[MrPike]

That makes absolutely no sense.

Supporting a locally owned business means paying more an not operating on price only. They can't "price match" or they won't exist.

If the store itself is not clean or the animals are poorly kept, then you can either choose to not patronize the store or choose to kindly offer suggestions to the owner to help make the store better.

Realize that most LFS employees are NOT experts and never will be. It is a lower paying job and it is a job, not a hobby for most. They only know what their vendors and co-workers tell them and it is often not great information or advice.

So either support the LFS so that it is there when you need it, or ignore it and shop online but don't complain when you need emergency salt on a Saturday or someplace to store your fish when your tank breaks, etc.

I agree with just about everything you said here, but not the part about my quote making no sense, I was being ironic.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

AB plus is $20.49 for 250ml. They sell it for 24.99.

They hike everything up over the set price by 10-40% except MAP items.

So I have a question about this one, let's be hypothetical for just a moment...

Let's say I have a small tank and want to try out Red Sea's AB+ so I decide on a 250ml bottle - because that's all I need. In this scenario your LFS is charging $25 and BRS is selling it for $20.49 plus $5 shipping (because you haven't met that $49 minimum for free shipping yet).

Whereas BRS is selling the product cheaper but has an added shipping cost and delay for delivery. I can save a whopping $0.50 by buying it at the LFS and have it today.

In this scenario we are being really specific, because if you're ordering other stuff too you will get over the free shipping threshold at BRS relatively quickly.

Now, Amazon doesn't have a minimum order for free shipping so from an LFS point of view their only competition is for the delay in shipping, so they match that price instead of BRS's because it is more comparable to their ability to provide - pay the same price as Amazon but you can have it today.

Now MAP prices work in a different sphere, theoretically they make everyone play on the same level so that a big online retailer (BRS, Saltwater Aquarium, Premium Aquatics, etc...) cannot price manipulate and undersell a smaller business with all sales being approved by the wholesaler/producer instead of the stores. This is why products like Neptune Systems "Apex" should be the same price everywhere.

I worked in an LFS for a while and got to know the owners and their way of thinking pretty well. LFS owners know they can't compete with BRS's prices - they can only hope to match the product quality and have the ability to provide the product sooner.

 

[merkmerk73]

Well as far as that goes, LFS can't survive on their retail side anyway anymore - they make all their money on services and coral.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Well as far as that goes, LFS can't survive on their retail side anyway anymore - they make all their money on services and coral.

Correct, the idea is that a customer should be reliably coming in for the dry goods (small profit margin) and hopefully see a coral/fish/invertebrate (higher profit margin) that they like and take home. In the more quality stores it's a mindset of creating a loyal customer base that will come back for dry goods - hopefully often enough to cover your overhead - while using live goods to generate a profit. The difficulty with this is you have to compete with the online vendors for dry goods while knowing your customer base well enough to only bringing in live goods that will move because the longer you're caring for that fish/invert/coral the less profit you are making.

The margin on dry goods is <30% (some <10%) and one live goods is usually 50% or more - some can sometimes be up to 300% depending on what the item is and what store it is. We would see the same animal we were selling in other stores for 50-60% more than what we were but because some of those big three-initial stores have a reputation they can charge more despite paying less.

A good LFS (which the OP and a couple other users here don't have locally) should be trying to price match to the best of their ability but will never outcompete the big online vendors unless they are focusing on their reputation and customer experience.

 

[i cant think]

Morning R2R, so I still prefer to see and "feel" stuff when I buy it and this includes stuff for my hobbies. This means I am usually hoping to find something in a brick and mortar before ordering online. In addition, it is always nice knowing that in a pinch, i could run to a store to get dry-goods vs waiting for something to ship (even if it is a dollar or two more). There is not much for fish stores in the surrounding 50+ miles or so, but we have been looking and come across a couple of hole in the wall places that could be awesome, but they all seem to be a let down.

How do you tell these places that the reason people stopped buying your stuff is cause the tanks are filled with bubble algae, etc and not because "there is no one doing saltwater in this city anymore"? How do you tell them that I cant see in through the salt crust to even know whats in the tank? The soggy boxes from humidity on the dry goods, means I don't trust the item works anymore? They even offer to custom order along with there next shipment, but I have no faith in what I am about to get.

I know its a bit of a rant, but having a store in the area and it being successful benefits me as much as the store owner. But how do you tell them to stop watching youtube or netflix, and go take care of the store?

Honestly, tell them straight up front. If they’re a good LFS and want to get more money, they will fix whatever issues there are, if they can’t be bothered or don’t care then leave. Many LFSs will often learn the hard way unfortunately and usually can’t recover once they’re down that rabbithole.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I agree with just about everything you said here, but not the part about my quote making no sense, I was being ironic.

Sorry - missed that

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I agree with just about everything you said here, but not the part about my quote making no sense, I was being ironic.

I agree with everything here. But I do have one question, and there has to be a reason. Perhaps, I will ask both local LFS. But, both my local stores here in Memphis have copious amounts of aiptasia in their tanks. Not just those 1/4 inch size, but like 1-2 inch width. These could have names or could be passed down to their kin when they get willed a boat anchor (small business, I get small business). The corals and fish are super healthy. Both stores are very clean and well organized and turn a ton of coral and fish. But yet their are tons of Godzilla sized aiptasia that could swallow your pinky if not careful but when I go to Petco (2 locally have pretty deep SW set ups) never do I see an aiptasia (they are actually in pretty decent shape). I don’t get it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The margin on dry goods is <30% (some <10%) and one live goods is usually 50% or more - some can sometimes be up to 300% depending on what the item is and what store it is. We would see the same animal we were selling in other stores for 50-60% more than what we were but because some of those big three-initial stores have a reputation they can charge more despite paying less.

Raw "margin" is misleading when comparing an online stocking retailer, a brick and mortar and a drop shipper.

Let's ignore the dry goods details and just focus on live goods.

Markup is 50% to 300% or more - but is it really?

The LFS orders $5,000 worth of fish from the wholesaler for the week.
- They pay you 2 hours to drive 30 miles to the airport in their van. Their cost $100 in wages, taxes, management.
- That is 60 miles of wear and tear and vehicle insurance and fuel. Let's call is $150
- Out of the $5,000 order 15% of the fish and coral are DOA.
- It takes you and another LFS employee 4 hours to unbag. float and dump them. Wage, taxes, management lets call it $400.
- Out of the remaining fish and coral another 15% don't live long enough to be sold.

Without considering any other store overhead, insurance, advertising, utilities, water, salt, other employees, theft, returns, fish guarantees, etc. Just the LIVE GOODS for the week and the labor T&M directly associated. You spent close to $6000 but only have $3600 worth of sellable fish. So 50% "markup" from wholesale gets you to $5400. Nit wait.. still a $600 net loss! So you markup 100% - that gets you about $1200 in gross profit for the week's work of fish live goods sales. Not enough to pay the overhead for everything else.

Silly people see an LFS "wholesale" price list and think "Wow these guys are paying $50 for a Tang they sell for $250... man they are gouging us and getting rich". When in reality there is a good chance they are losing money on the livestock, but MUST have it to keep foot traffic in the store.

 

[i cant think]

I agree with everything here. But I do have one question, and there has to be a reason. Perhaps, I will ask both local LFS. But, both my local stores here in Memphis have copious amounts of aiptasia in their tanks. Not just those 1/4 inch size, but like 1-2 inch width. These could have names or could be passed down to their kin when they get willed a boat anchor (small business, I get small business). The corals and fish are super healthy. Both stores are very clean and well organized and turn a ton of coral and fish. But yet their are tons of Godzilla sized aiptasia that could swallow your pinky if not careful but when I go to Petco (2 locally have pretty deep SW set ups) never do I see an aiptasia (they are actually in pretty decent shape). I don’t get it.

Those huge aiptasia are a pain to keep and actually, I believe aiptasia do have a place in a reef tank (I know this is an unpopular opinion). I’ve yet to see a thriving tank without even just 1-2 aiptasia.

 

[Kzang]

So I have a question about this one, let's be hypothetical for just a moment...

Let's say I have a small tank and want to try out Red Sea's AB+ so I decide on a 250ml bottle - because that's all I need. In this scenario your LFS is charging $25 and BRS is selling it for $20.49 plus $5 shipping (because you haven't met that $49 minimum for free shipping yet).

Whereas BRS is selling the product cheaper but has an added shipping cost and delay for delivery. I can save a whopping $0.50 by buying it at the LFS and have it today.

In this scenario we are being really specific, because if you're ordering other stuff too you will get over the free shipping threshold at BRS relatively quickly.

Now, Amazon doesn't have a minimum order for free shipping so from an LFS point of view their only competition is for the delay in shipping, so they match that price instead of BRS's because it is more comparable to their ability to provide - pay the same price as Amazon but you can have it today.

Now MAP prices work in a different sphere, theoretically they make everyone play on the same level so that a big online retailer (BRS, Saltwater Aquarium, Premium Aquatics, etc...) cannot price manipulate and undersell a smaller business with all sales being approved by the wholesaler/producer instead of the stores. This is why products like Neptune Systems "Apex" should be the same price everywhere.

I worked in an LFS for a while and got to know the owners and their way of thinking pretty well. LFS owners know they can't compete with BRS's prices - they can only hope to match the product quality and have the ability to provide the product sooner.

BRS doesn’t have magical pricing powers. Sure, they can get better deals on some stuff from bulk. I purchase a lot from premium aquatics that charges zero tax. They have the identical prices as BRS.

If brs/premium aquatics/other lfs about an hour from me sell the same price, why would I pay hiked up LFS price. I’m not.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

BRS doesn’t have magical pricing powers. Sure, they can get better deals on some stuff from bulk. I purchase a lot from premium aquatics that charges zero tax. They have the identical prices as BRS.

If brs/premium aquatics/other lfs about an hour from me sell the same price, why would I pay hiked up LFS price. I’m not.

You are more than entitled to spend your money where ever you wish, sure if you want to factor your time and gas for a two hour round trip then that makes buying online worth it.

I am lucky enough to be within an hour or so (some speeding may be involved) of numerous quality shops (think of those big three-lettered stores), and don't mind an excuse to shop around in person. So for me I consider that to be a wash compared to shipping because I'm making the drive for my enjoyment.

If my nearest LFS was an hour a way and not of any quality, then no, I'm making that drive so the price is now moot even if it was the same as the online retailers. But if I have a quality store within that drive then is them being $3-4 more such a bad thing if it's still less than the shipped price?

To me, while we have R2R, this hobby would die without the LFS (the quality ones anyway). So unless you're price shopping down to the penny and factoring in all the shipping too, then it's worth supporting a quality LFS.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Raw "margin" is misleading when comparing an online stocking retailer, a brick and mortar and a drop shipper.

Let's ignore the dry goods details and just focus on live goods.

Markup is 50% to 300% or more - but is it really?

The LFS orders $5,000 worth of fish from the wholesaler for the week.
- They pay you 2 hours to drive 30 miles to the airport in their van. Their cost $100 in wages, taxes, management.
- That is 60 miles of wear and tear and vehicle insurance and fuel. Let's call is $150
- Out of the $5,000 order 15% of the fish and coral are DOA.
- It takes you and another LFS employee 4 hours to unbag. float and dump them. Wage, taxes, management lets call it $400.
- Out of the remaining fish and coral another 15% don't live long enough to be sold.

Without considering any other store overhead, insurance, advertising, utilities, water, salt, other employees, theft, returns, fish guarantees, etc. Just the LIVE GOODS for the week and the labor T&M directly associated. You spent close to $6000 but only have $3600 worth of sellable fish. So 50% "markup" from wholesale gets you to $5400. Nit wait.. still a $600 net loss! So you markup 100% - that gets you about $1200 in gross profit for the week's work of fish live goods sales. Not enough to pay the overhead for everything else.

Silly people see an LFS "wholesale" price list and think "Wow these guys are paying $50 for a Tang they sell for $250... man they are gouging us and getting rich". When in reality there is a good chance they are losing money on the livestock, but MUST have it to keep foot traffic in the store.

Yeah, I'm now realizing I was using the wrong term as I wasn't trying to reference the profit margin I meant to say markup....granted I was trying to make the same point as you I just referred to generic "overhead", however your response is a lot more detailed.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

There’s a LFS here, fresh water only. The only thing I can figure about them, is their Laundering Money. LOL

 

[PotatoPig]

Those huge aiptasia are a pain to keep and actually, I believe aiptasia do have a place in a reef tank (I know this is an unpopular opinion). I’ve yet to see a thriving tank without even just 1-2 aiptasia.

Here’s a fairly impressive Elegance coral at the Smithsonian National Zoo, about 18” across.

If you look closely you might be able to find an aiptasia or two…

 

[JNalley]

I am lucky enough to have 5 locally-owned brick-and-mortar stores and 4 Petco's doing saltwater within a 40-mile radius. The Petco's are Petco's and everything in there looks unhappy all the time, I try to rescue nems if I can when I can... but let's focus on the local businesses for a moment.

1) The closest, has the best prices for fish but want to charge $50/polyp on some bland Zoa's. They also have a steady supply of used tanks and sometimes equipment. Besides used tanks, they sell almost no dry goods beyond some additives, they don't even sell salt. But, I refuse to go there because it's extremely rundown inside, and every time they get in a new Chromis shipment, they unleash them into the tanks even though it's clear they have Uronema.

2) The next closest store, has decent prices on coral, and ok prices on fish, and a store full of dry goods, some of their display tanks could use some TLC, but overall the store itself isn't bad. However, whenever I go in there, it takes them 30 minutes for them to acknowledge my existence, and they don't even ask if I want any help. I've waited around for over an hour just walking the store with my daughter, waiting for someone to "unbusy" themselves just to help. As a result, I only buy corals from them at their facebook auction prices, even though I would gladly buy fish and other things. People have left facebook reviews about this same thing, and the store owner just backtalks and makes excuses, so their customer service practices will never change.

3) the 3rd closest store to me, smells to high heaven when you walk in, like you've stepped into a skimmer cup, and you can't see inside any of the tanks to know what they have. Walked in, stayed 5 minutes to walk through the store, walked out, never looked back.

4) The fourth store closest to me is about a 30 minute drive, the others are all 15-20 tops, so it's about twice the distance maybe a bit less. They have higher prices for fish than the others by a fair bit, coral prices are reasonable, but the store looks wonderful, the tanks are clear, the fish look healthy, they have a decent amount of dry goods available, and they even take requests like "Any chance you guys can get some macro algae in?". It's excellent. I guess their success may be aided by the fact that it's more than just a saltwater fish, or fish store, it caters to other pets too. But as a result of this combination, I go to this store.

5) Haven't been, may go soon as I hear good things, but store 3 has some of the best reviews around, and I'd rather spend the night in a heroin den than go back.

I've actually been considering trying to open my own store as I feel I could run things so much better, there's obviously a demand for it, and being 40 minutes away from the currently best store in town has got to be a bummer for most people. So, who knows, maybe I'll pull the trigger and try to fill the void in the market. Local business is a bit scary though.

 

[braaap]

Sounds like you shouldn’t bother. They know about the mess they have and are possibly just waiting for bankruptcy proceeding to be finalized.

I guarantee they aren’t waiting for bankruptcy proceedings. That’s exceedingly rare for small businesses.

AB plus is $20.49 for 250ml. They sell it for 24.99.

They hike everything up over the set price by 10-40% except MAP items.

As they are entitled to do. Either pay it or don’t. Quit whining.

Nah, they just greedy. They lose a lot of business from people like me that would rather just get it off Amazon, brs, or premium aquatics and wait 2 days than pay such a markup. They expanded. They ain’t hurting as much as you would think.

If they need to over charge retail prices to sustain themselves, then they need to go out of business.

Other LFS not in my area about an hour drive so don’t this. They have no markup on their dry goods, and their fish and inverts are half the price of that hiked prices LFS.

You should support your LFS, but not when they overcharge.

That example was from BRS prices, but I’m talking about general retail prices across the board. If Red Sea sells this for $10, the LFS, should sell it for $10.

I have no loyalty to anybody except for the best price. It’s so weird to me for people support and/or defended LFS or whatever even if they have high prices, bad tanks, and etc because we should just support them.

If they can’t compete, and maintain their business, then they should fail.

I order 99.999999999999% off online with fish, coral, and dry goods because they offer the best price.

If my multiple LFS was decent, and I’d be more than happy to buy from them than online.

Once you learn business and economics you’ll understand why supporting a local business benefits you.

But keep shoppping online over 10%. When all those businesses close you’ll be out a job and you won’t have any money to shop online. It’s a vicious circle but you’ll figure it out soon enough.

BRS doesn’t have magical pricing powers. Sure, they can get better deals on some stuff from bulk. I purchase a lot from premium aquatics that charges zero tax. They have the identical prices as BRS.

If brs/premium aquatics/other lfs about an hour from me sell the same price, why would I pay hiked up LFS price. I’m not.

Because that 5-10% more allows someone to eat. It allows someone to buy clothes for their family. But I promise you that 5-10% you save at BRS isn’t going to anyone but the elite board members of that mega corporation. Because BRS is now part of one.

Support local. Pay a little more. You’ll see the benefits in your community.

 

[ilikefish69]

A hobby is no longer a hobby, when you start making money off it.

Money can do funny things to partners.

money is the root of all evil

 

[i cant think]

Here’s a fairly impressive Elegance coral at the Smithsonian National Zoo, about 18” across.

If you look closely you might be able to find an aiptasia or two…

Either that’s a ton of Yellow Parazoanthids or a ton of Aiptasia. Yet they don’t seem to even affect the Elegance… it really does make you question if we should totally eradicate aiptasia from a reef.

 

[doubleshot00]

Funny to read this but can think of several specific stores.

One store recently went under surprise surprise.

The other is a well known vendor at coral shows. They have very nice stuff at the shows and the corals always look amazing. But i went to there store a few months back and it was literally a (crap-hole). Nasty tanks, algae everywhere and nothing instock. I was literally shocked.

Did i say anything. Nope walked in looked around found a piece of an sps colony broke offered a little money for it and bought and left.

 

[Kzang]

I guarantee they aren’t waiting for bankruptcy proceedings. That’s exceedingly rare for small businesses.



As they are entitled to do. Either pay it or don’t. Quit whining.



Once you learn business and economics you’ll understand why supporting a local business benefits you.

But keep shoppping online over 10%. When all those businesses close you’ll be out a job and you won’t have any money to shop online. It’s a vicious circle but you’ll figure it out soon enough.



Because that 5-10% more allows someone to eat. It allows someone to buy clothes for their family. But I promise you that 5-10% you save at BRS isn’t going to anyone but the elite board members of that mega corporation. Because BRS is now part of one.

Support local. Pay a little more. You’ll see the benefits in your community.

I’m not whining. I have a B.S. in economics. lol oh and my minor was in business administration.

I already stated that I won’t buy as my posts have shown.