How long before vinegar lowers nitrates?

[TWYOUNG]

I began dosing vinegar to my 130g system five weeks ago with 4ml daily and am increasing my daily dose by 4ml each week. I'm up to 32ml per day now with no significant decrease in nitrates, 30 to 24. How long does this usually take, and is there some maximum amount I can dose per day?

 

[Harpo]

Interesting. I was not aware that vinegar will lower Nitrates. What is it doing to your PH?

 

[BaliReefBox]

when i first started it took about 7-10 days to start to see a fall. I started slow and upped a 1ml every second day until the fall then I let it stabilize at that dose until the no3 stopped falling then increased the dose again by a mil for a bit and stopped again. once target reached I kept that dose and tested daily and adjusted as required until dose equaled desired target.. from what I know there is no max dose as long as you go slow and the system is using it..btw i do 50-50 vodka vinegar but it just carbon

 

[dwest]

I began dosing vinegar to my 130g system five weeks ago with 4ml daily and am increasing my daily dose by 4ml each week. I'm up to 32ml per day now with no significant decrease in nitrates, 30 to 24. How long does this usually take, and is there some maximum amount I can dose per day?

I think 30 to 24 is significant. 20% drop sounds good. Is there a number you are trying to reach?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I began dosing vinegar to my 130g system five weeks ago with 4ml daily and am increasing my daily dose by 4ml each week. I'm up to 32ml per day now with no significant decrease in nitrates, 30 to 24. How long does this usually take, and is there some maximum amount I can dose per day?

What are your Phosphate levels?

Carbon dosing requires phosphate to feed the bacterial that lower Nitrate.
If you've run out of phosphate the process will stop (and your coral won't be too happy either)..

 

[TWYOUNG]

Interesting. I was not aware that vinegar will lower Nitrates. What is it doing to your PH?

It's just a carbon source such as vodka or NoPox. No effect on pH as yet.

 

[TWYOUNG]

What are your Phosphate levels?

Carbon dosing requires phosphate to feed the bacterial that lower Nitrate.
If you've run out of phosphate the process will stop (and your coral won't be too happy either)..

Phosphate is between 0.15 and 0.2. Was up to 0.5 before I started using a small amt of GFO.

 

[TWYOUNG]

when i first started it took about 7-10 days to start to see a fall. I started slow and upped a 1ml every second day until the fall then I let it stabilize at that dose until the no3 stopped falling then increased the dose again by a mil for a bit and stopped again. once target reached I kept that dose and tested daily and adjusted as required until dose equaled desired target.. from what I know there is no max dose as long as you go slow and the system is using it..btw i do 50-50 vodka vinegar but it just carbon

What do you mean by,"the system is using it"? How would I determine this?

 

[BaliReefBox]

What do you mean by,"the system is using it"? How would I determine this?

the bacteria colonies grow so if you are dosing and no3 stagnates at a higher level than you are aiming for add more carbon then more bacteria and lower no3 and a bit of po4 lower also. I do remember reading before there is a loose ratio of like 4:1 no3 to po4 removal. from my understanding and experience with it no3 will come down more than po4. as has been mentioned you cant bottom out the po4 as it is needed. if you search here there was a great article explaining how it worked and the way to go about it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Organic carbon dosing can be slow to impact nitrate, and IMO, the most likely reason is the slow ramp up in organic dose that most reefers use.

We discuss it here:

Looking for thoughts on organic carbon dosing and nitrate

It is frequently claimed that it takes a long time (sometimes weeks) for organic carbon dosing to reduce nitrate. Do folks believe that is true, and if it is, why would it be true? Are most folks just starting to dose too slowly? Bacterial number increase is sometimes cited as a reason, but...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[TWYOUNG]

Organic carbon dosing can be slow to impact nitrate, and IMO, the most likely reason is the slow ramp up in organic dose that most reefers use.

We discuss it here:

Looking for thoughts on organic carbon dosing and nitrate

It is frequently claimed that it takes a long time (sometimes weeks) for organic carbon dosing to reduce nitrate. Do folks believe that is true, and if it is, why would it be true? Are most folks just starting to dose too slowly? Bacterial number increase is sometimes cited as a reason, but...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for the link. Since my level isn't very high, (twenties), and my tank doesn't have any algae issues, I'm willing to be patient and continue with weekly 4ml/day increases unless you'd suggest a different course of action.

 

[tedfisher496]

Interesting. I was not aware that vinegar will lower Nitrates. What is it doing to your PH?

vinegar is carbon just like vodka.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the link. Since my level isn't very high, (twenties), and my tank doesn't have any algae issues, I'm willing to be patient and continue with weekly 4ml/day increases unless you'd suggest a different course of action.

I agree that 20’s is not a big concern and there’s no rush.

 

[jda]

Are you skimming well? Some people who fail with OC shut their skimmers down or otherwise are not exporting. I imagine that this is fine, but better to ask since we have seen it before...

It is not always a bad idea to add another skimmer when using OC - helps oxygenate and also removes more organics.

 

[TWYOUNG]

Are you skimming well? Some people who fail with OC shut their skimmers down or otherwise are not exporting. I imagine that this is fine, but better to ask since we have seen it before...

It is not always a bad idea to add another skimmer when using OC - helps oxygenate and also removes more organics.

Yes, I have a big Reef Octopus and skim 24/7.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Only organic carbon is added without other elemental nutrients, nutrients which are constantly removed by the skimmer as part of the organic waste. What guarantee is there that sufficient elemental substances are supplied so that the growth you are aiming for with dosing can actually take place?
Why usable nitrate-nitrogen is able to build up in a well lit aquarium? Nitrate-nitrogen is exported constantly by normal natural de-nitrification. Something is limiting growth and it is not nitrogen, organic carbon or light. Why do you suspect very fast growers will be able to restore the nutrient balance? They will not!

Nitrate is a safely stored and usable nitrogen source. Once the nitrification capacity is build off by dosing or removed by overdosing, then only correct dosing may prevent ammonia build up.

Supporting growth of very fast growers , able to use ammonia-nitrogen only, with free unlimited organic carbon supply, what happens to all slower growing organisms responsible for keeping the balance before dosing was started, in competition for the same amount of essential nutrients? ( Most fast growing bacteria are not able to use nitrate-nitrogen because they do not have the enzymes. They are very small and the life cycle is short , are not skimmed easily, needing a constant supply of organic carbon to keep the growth- cycle going. Heterotrophic bacteria able to use nitrate for growth do prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source and consume a lot more organic carbon to produce the energy needed for transforming nitrate into usable ammonia, slowing down growth rates, allowing competition for available nutrients using the same nitrogen source , allowing natural import of organic carbon for increasing the C/N ratio of feed, reducing the need for nitrification. Organismns using nitrate are not able to compete with bacteria using ammonia. )

How much is the daily nitrogen overproduction on which the daily dose of carbohydrates can be based? How much may be dosed daily without any risk for overdosing? How to build off dosing after overdosing without removing support for the carrying capacity? If one is not able to answer these questions one should not start with adding vinegar or an other carbohydrate. Dosing vinegar based on the nitrate level does NOT prevent overdosing,

Since a safe daily dose does not exist but the daily ammonia production ( ammonia available for nitrification) and not nitrate levels may be used as a more realistic parameter, how do you know you are not adding too much? By redistributing the available nutrients maybe those slow growing organisms normally consuming nitrate are not able to do so, even when nitrate is not produced anymore, the nitrate level may not decend as suspected. What are you going to do if the nitrate level does not decend as suspected? Increase the dose? How the max dose will be determined?
It has been shown adding carbohydrates is not reef safe due to uncontrollable redistribution of nutrients, also taking place in the coral holobiont.

What is the risk in the presence of nitrate compared to the risk one takes by adding carbohydrates, especially if one does not have the correct information needed to determine a safe daily dose.

 

[Dom]

I began dosing vinegar to my 130g system five weeks ago with 4ml daily and am increasing my daily dose by 4ml each week. I'm up to 32ml per day now with no significant decrease in nitrates, 30 to 24. How long does this usually take, and is there some maximum amount I can dose per day?

Why not do a water change.? With a tank that size, a 25 gallon weekly water change would solve the problem.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Why not do a water change.? With a tank that size, a 25 gallon weekly water change would solve the problem.

What problem would be solved? My opinion water changes only create personal problems, taking a lot of space in the personal agenda and the budget . After the water change one may plan the next one as nothing is done to correct or threat the cause or the reason why the previous water change was carried out .

 

[Dom]

What problem would be solved? My opinion water changes only create personal problems, taking a lot of space in the personal agenda and the budget . After the water change one may plan the next one as nothing is done to correct or threat the cause or the reason why the previous water change was carried out .

Water changes serve two purposes :

1. Nutrient export.
2. Element replenishment.

You’re dosing to reduce nitrates. Water changes will do the same.

 

[TWYOUNG]

Why not do a water change.? With a tank that size, a 25 gallon weekly water change would solve the problem.

I do 25 gal water changes monthly. I'm experimenting with carbon dosing bc it apparently works for many people and would be far less labor intensive and costly than doing that much water changing. A water change would mess with all my parameters, some of which I don't wish to reduce, phosphate for instance.