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Im running Zeovit system, they dont recommend UV...?oversize UV.
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Im running Zeovit system, they dont recommend UV...?oversize UV.
Nice write up and I agree with most of it. While I do not have to quarantine, the majority of people will have to, especially Noobs as I know many of them will not be able to keep their fish in such shape to always be immune to ich. Your pros and cons is also right on. You did leave out one "con" to quarantining but I don't want to screw up your thread with my controversial theories. I am writing a book and one of the chapters is on this. You may find this interesting as it goes along with this thread. Keep up the good work.
Fish Health Through Slime
Guess if you dated a girl who looked like a flounder I can see why you think about super models so much
Question, can you go into more detail about the best foods, vitamins, etc you have found to build up the slime coat?
Now, another thing we all know is that if you are on an airplane with sick people you are more likely to get sick. This is because you are in an enclosed system with prolonged exposure. You are probably dehydrated. You probably haven’t eaten well. You’re probably stressed. Sound familiar?
Terri, she was a very cute Flounder.
Yes I can. All fish will have a slime coat no matter what you feed them, but the slime coat has two purposes. One is that it is water soluble so it constantly sloughs off bringing most of the parasites with it.
The other purpose of the slime is to house the antibodies and anti/parasitic substances that will prevent so much of what is written about on these forums. The slime is exuded all over the place on a fish as are the antibodies. It takes a huge amount of calories and energy to constantly produce slime and antibodies as it is always renewed.
The proper food in the correct amounts are needed for this to happen. The most important function a fish has to take care of is immunity and that is where most of the calories go to. If the immune system is impaired, the other functions of the fish will wane. Growth and reproduction will stop if the immune system does not get the correct nutrition which is why many fish in a tank do not produce eggs. Normal fish produce eggs constantly, like "most" of us grow hair. A healthy female fish can't stop egg production.
That is also why I say a lot that "many" (not all) quarantined fish, especially medicated fish can not spawn. Their immune system is compromised and that has to work correctly for the fish to produce eggs. I don't want to re argue about that so if anyone does not agree send me a SASE and I will throw it away and steam off the stamp.
As to the food, fish do not need a varied diet. They need a diet like what they were eating in the sea and most fish have a simple diet. Predators eat other "whole" fish. Thats all they need.
Most other fish like clowns, anthius, Royal Gramma's etc. will eat anything they see and if it is moving, they will eat it faster but a large part of the diet of all fish is live, whole baby fish. All of their diet is "whole" animals with all the diseases in the sea.
So if you can give a fish an entire animal to eat, they need nothing else. No vitamins, minerals, or rogain.
I like to use clams because a clam is a wonder food for us and for fish. They are filter feeders and full of vitamins and minerals. When you chop up a clam you are also feeding the bacteria/viruses and parasites in it's gut.
Those three things are all a fish needs to stay immune and that fish will never get sick and will never have go on a disease thread.
My tank is not magical and has been running disease free longer than any parasite research that has been done anywhere so I am calling it a scientific study. You can call it luck, gibberish, nonsense or creamed spinach.
Of course if we could get living, tiny fish that would be the best, but that food is not available so we can use the next best thing. I even feed my hippo tang clams every day, no algae and he does not complain and is a perfect fish with not a scale out of place and was never quarantined, observed, cuddled, medicated or read to.
To have immune fish they need to occasionally eat foods containing the diseases we are trying to get them immune to.
You don't have to feed that every day, but it is better if you do.
This is true, but the pilots and hostesses/stewardesses are not constantly sick because they are exposed to it daily. Just like I mentioned, the subway rails in New York City's 130 year old subway system.
No one cleans those handrails and 2,000,000 people ride that system from all over the world every day along with a whole lot of degenerates, yet we don't all get sick. In the 40 years I rode that subway I don't remember ever taking off a day due to sickness. Broken bones, torn ligaments, surgeries, dates with Supermodels, yes, but sickness, almost never.
I realize most people don't believe me but I feel it is common sense "to me" that extended quarantine, in a semi bare tank especially with medication is what actually causes fish disease and not the other way around. Fish in the sea are perfectly fine and are perfectly suited to take care of any diseases they may encounter in transit, just as if they took the subway.
But I am to old to argue about "again".
Clams are also very cheap (here in NY) I also feed LRS food every day but I like the living bacteria I get in the clams I try to buy live. I also use live whiteworms which I raise for practically free.
I don't remember where I took this but all those "dots" are fry. Fish feast on them all day and they are all over every reef. That entire school could be from just one Mother fish and they all spawn all the time.
Parasites don't live on corals but they could be introduced with the water that the corals are living in.
Unfortunately, not true old friend.
This parasite talk is ridiculous. Even the parasites don't care about it.
But I love you Bobby, charts, medications and all.
I love you too, but there's only one way we can finally resolve this QT debate...
Yes, and I guess I am the balder one.
Love all your pictures and your creations beautiful tankThis may go along with this thread. Over a week ago I aquired these two shrimpfish (yes, I know, very cool) In a couple of days, one became covered in spots, stopped eating and the next day he was dead. As always, I didn't quarantine them. If I did, I probably could have saved that shrimpfish. But the other one is still fine and I replaced the dead one. There is no sign of any spots on anything and i know there won't be as I have been doing this a long time and there has not been a spot on anything in probably 30 years, I don't remember. I don't want to elaborate to much but to me, an immune fish is much healthier than a segregated fish. Just my opinion of course. I also realize almost all Noobs should quarantine even if they think their fish are healthy. If their diet consists of flakes, pellets and brine shrimp, they are not healthy. If they are not spawning or making spawning jestures, they are not healthy. Not at all. "All' Healthy fish spawn "in the sea". Some won't spawn in a tank just because the conditions are not right for them, but they still should be in spawning condition. Some fish like clowns can eat cardboard and spawn, but most fish need better food and live food is the best with whole frozen foods next. I know what a lot of people are thinking. This guy doesn't know a fish from a Duck Billed Platypus. Of course some of my fish are older than those people but those people right now are thinking that they only feed "Premium" flakes and pellets because they are expensive. Good luck with that, and make shure to quarantine.
Ich eradication vs. Ich management
The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.
Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.
Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.
The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.
What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.
The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.
Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire.
Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:
A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.
- Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
- Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
- Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
- Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
- No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.
Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?
However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.
Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.