Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[Nik0231]

Perfect write up and huge amount of information. Besides that its a tricky disease and having a reef tank cant decide what option to follow.

 

[jaxteller007]

@Humblefish we possibly spotted some Ich on our sailfin tang. If it is Ich, it's very minor right now. Like a total of maybe 5 white spots on his body.
We are unfortunately not set up to QT right now, all our live stock is normally brought to us having already passed through a rigorous QT procedure. And we don't have a hospital tank available. With the lock down, travelling around to try and buy all the stuff needed to set up one of those is out of the question (not too mention the financial impact of that). Are the meds you would recommend us trying in the tank itself while this case is still very mild?

I know your strongly recommend ich eradication, it's just not in the cards for us till things get closer back to normal.
We have basically a FOWLR although we do have one Duncan coral. If we lose some of the inverts like snails and crabs, that's not the end of the world. Hopefully whatever meds we can try don't kill the pistol shrimp or horseshoe crab. But in the end, suppressing the Ich is more important.

I should say I went ahead and ordered from AAP after reading their articles from your meds to keep on hands thread. Ordered the greenex and marine wonder shells. Just didn't know if there's something else we could try that may get here before those do since they couldn't be ordered on Amazon or like Petco/Petsmart for curbside pickup.

 

[jaxteller007]

Probably should have tagged @4FordFamily and #reefsquad too lol

 

[4FordFamily]

I've drained 200G tanks full of coral to remove fish for treatment in these cases. It's definitely not fun. I regret none of it, my worry-free tank life right now for my 500G and 180G tanks were well worth it.

Living with ich isn't a huge deal for many fish, but the other parasites pose a different and much greater threat. Eventually, velvet is likely to make it in the tank and what worked to manage "ich" may well fail.

SOME experience success with diatom filters, stocking hardy fish species that aren't comparatively susceptible to parasites, and UV sterilizers and the like. I've not had success with UV, and I keep lots of tangs and beautiful, more difficult to keep species and thus this wasn't my method of choice. I probably keep 40-50 fish in various tanks, with half of them being tangs, angels, butterflies, etc. I'm glad I made the choice I did. Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[4FordFamily]

@HotRocks might be a good tag too. He has similar experience.

 

[jaxteller007]

I've drained 200G tanks full of coral to remove fish for treatment in these cases. It's definitely not fun. I regret none of it, my worry-free tank life right now for my 500G and 180G tanks were well worth it.

Living with ich isn't a huge deal for many fish, but the other parasites pose a different and much greater threat. Eventually, velvet is likely to make it in the tank and what worked to manage "ich" may well fail.

SOME experience success with diatom filters, stocking hardy fish species that aren't comparatively susceptible to parasites, and UV sterilizers and the like. I've not had success with UV, and I keep lots of tangs and beautiful, more difficult to keep species and thus this wasn't my method of choice. I probably keep 40-50 fish in various tanks, with half of them being tangs, angels, butterflies, etc. I'm glad I made the choice I did. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Yea just unfortunately getting all the stuff to set up a QT or hospital tank isn't in the cards right now. The wife just got her hours and pay cut by half for probably 90 days and there's a chance it happens to me too. So we just need to find some budget friendly meds that can help keep it managed until things get back to normal. Once that happens we will work towards setting up a hospital tank. I'm not too worried about a QT setup cause we get our stuff only after it's been QT'd already. Plus we have limited available space right now lol.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yea just unfortunately getting all the stuff to set up a QT or hospital tank isn't in the cards right now. The wife just got her hours and pay cut by half for probably 90 days and there's a chance it happens to me too. So we just need to find some budget friendly meds that can help keep it managed until things get back to normal. Once that happens we will work towards setting up a hospital tank. I'm not too worried about a QT setup cause we get our stuff only after it's been QT'd already. Plus we have limited available space right now lol.

Where did you get your fish quarantined? There are very few good places for this. It also won't help if the current inhabitants didn't go through the same treatments. Sorry for the trouble.

 

[jaxteller007]

Where did you get your fish quarantined? There are very few good places for this. It also won't help if the current inhabitants didn't go through the same treatments. Sorry for the trouble.

A local company/person that does QT after livestock is shipped to them. I have complete faith in their process, there's no telling where this may have come from. And I'm not 100% sure it is Ich just trying to have some stuff on hand in case it is to manage it. Until things have returned to normal and we can set up a hospital tank for situations like this.

 

[Forshurley]

Hello,
I wanted to share my experience and get some advise from all you pros regarding my tank status of being ick eradicated vs managed. I have been reefing a while and took dive into a upgrade from a 120g to 180g tank. I am trying to take it slow and do the build the tank right. On February 1st my tank got wet, I did 60 day cycle before adding fish. Once I felt tank was ready I added 5 fish from current set up that I have had 5+ years (they appeared to be healthy) with 5 fish from marine collectors. After two weeks of fish being fine my hippo tang ( note this was from marine collectors) showed signs of ick and started scratching against the rocks. I then noticed 1-2 dots of ick on some other fish and that’s when it started to sink in that my tank isn’t sterile and has ick.

I reached out to Elliot from marine collectors and was advised to do a 76 days of hypo salinity in my tank. He said ick must have been dormant in my old fish showing zero signs of disease and must have been stressed out by tank transfer and infected other fish.

My tank currently just has dry rock and fish in it....My question is if I do hypo salinity in my main tank for 76 days would my tank be considered ick free or am I just trying to manage it?

My main concern is my new Achilles tang and keeping my dream fish alive. I am also not going to add copper to the tank based on the rock absorbing the copper and messing with the levels later on. I have QT set up but not large enough for 10 fish....

my tank is currently in day 2 of hypo salinity and the ick does seem to be less visible to the eye.

thanks in advanced for any feed back and your help.

cheers
forshurley

 

[iprayforwaves]

I hate to say this but I disagree with this. Fish in the sea are living constantly with all the same diseases and parasites that they are getting in a lot of tanks. The reason we are getting the Corona Virus is that it is a new disease that probably jumped from rats, bats or duck billed platypuses, I don't know so we have no immunity.

Bubonic Plague was another disease that jumped from rodents. (it was actually Gerbels and not rats, but also from China)
Anyway, the Plague was a new disease and we had no immunity from it just as Corona Virus is new to Humans and us.

Descendants of People who survived the Plague are now immune to Aids. (All Plague victims did not die from a bacteria as some forms of Plague deaths were viral. Their HMOs couldn't tell the difference)

Anyway, be it as it may, our fish in the sea are immune from ich, velvet and almost everything else, if they were not, that flounder I had for dinner last night would have died way before I ate him as fish eat parasites and diseases with every meal as most fish don't cook their food.

When this virus passes, many of us will have some immunity to it for a certain length of time but we are not normally encountering it on a daily basis which is why no one is immune except for maybe the people who recovered.

No one in the new world was immune from Small Pox which is why most of them died when Europeans came here. The Europeans didn't "all" die from it and they didn't look that clean and healthy to me. It took months to get here in a filthy ship filled with rats and rancid water and food. The only thing they had going for them on those sailing ships was that there was no RAP music.

But the Europeans had some immunity because everyone was exposed to it and after a lot of them died, the rest didn't.

My theory is that our fish need some exposure to all the diseases they encountered in the sea and if they have that, they will never get sick. I think my 50 year old tank kind of proves that to some extent.

You will find no older "Quarantined" tank and the reason for that is what I just said throughout this thread.
There are actually no old quarantined tanks. Think about that.

But while you are thinking, quarantine yourself and stay away from everyone for now.

Hey Paul, a little off topic but what worms are you feeding your fish and how do you grow them? I'm interested in feeding live foods. Thanks in advance!

 

[jaxteller007]

Descendants of People who survived the Plague are now immune to Aids. (All Plague victims did not die from a bacteria as some forms of Plague deaths were viral.

Its not decandents of bubonic plague that have some enhanced resistance to HIV. Bubonic is bacterial, it doesn't have much to do with viral infections.
From what I've read of the thing you're talking about its people's who ancestors survived some kind of mass viral pandemic back then. Some researchers think the black death was a viral thing and not bubonic. The paper was inclusive from what I recall on if they passed on that mutation that makes people resistant to HIV because they survived, or they survived because they already had that mutation. Their ancestors are only "immune" to HIV if they get the mutation passed on from both parents too. Otherwise they can still become infected but have a tendency to survive much longer without developing full blown AIDS.
Still wild to think that a genetic mutation from 100s of years ago can make someone basically immune to HIV.
Didn't mean to derail the thread.

 

[Paul B]

Hey Paul, a little off topic but what worms are you feeding your fish and how do you grow them? I'm interested in feeding live foods. Thanks in advance!

I grow and feed white worms. You grow them in wet potting soil and with just some bread and yogurt in one shoebox you get more worms than you can use.

You google White worm culture and you get a few hundred worms in an envelope for about $15.00
It takes about a month before you get enough of them to start to feed and maybe 2 months where you can harvest a lot of them.

They need to be kept in the 70s so in Florida you may have to put them in a cooler with a small freezer pack.
Mine are about 75 degrees.
I feed a few worms almost every day and as you know, I can't participate in these disease or quarantine discussions because that is a non issue for me. I think the bacteria in the worms is one of the main things that allows me to do that.
I added a copperband buterfly a couple of days ago. Right from the bag to my tank like I have been doing for half a century.

My last one died after 10 years and I also have an ich magnet hippo tang. In the past years I have kept almost every type of tang, I just find them boring.

Good luck and stay safe.

 

[jaxteller007]

I grow and feed white worms. You grow them in wet potting soil and with just some bread and yogurt in one shoebox you get more worms than you can use.

You google White worm culture and you get a few hundred worms in an envelope for about $15.00
It takes about a month before you get enough of them to start to feed and maybe 2 months where you can harvest a lot of them.

They need to be kept in the 70s so in Florida you may have to put them in a cooler with a small freezer pack.
Mine are about 75 degrees.
I feed a few worms almost every day and as you know, I can't participate in these disease or quarantine discussions because that is a non issue for me. I think the bacteria in the worms is one of the main things that allows me to do that.
I added a copperband buterfly a couple of days ago. Right from the bag to my tank like I have been doing for half a century.

My last one died after 10 years and I also have an ich magnet hippo tang. In the past years I have kept almost every type of tang, I just find them boring.

Good luck and stay safe.

Need to try and start a white worm culture and start feeding them to our little slice of the ocean.

 

[firsttimeowner]

Ich eradication vs. Ich management​

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire.

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:

• Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
• Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
• No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.

A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.

Hey I'm hoping you might be able to help with this problem i'm having and I am wondering if it is whitespot or not,

So here are my parameters
Amonia-0
Nitrite-0.1
Nitrate-16
PH-7.8
calcium-420
Mag-1240
Alkalinity- 7

currently dosing ATI pro, magnesium and NO3..po4-x

Running D-D UV 20w
FMR-75 with rowa phos
Illuminair V2-1200

However 2 of my fish predominantly, my magnificent foxface has white spot so we of course dosed as per instructions to try and fix the problem, the only thing we now have is an exceptionally cloudy tank, my foxface doesnt look no better either. I have to add I don't know about putting carbon into the water right now because it will remove the treatment for his whitespot. However he is out swimming around and eating as normal i'm honestly not sure what to do, do you have any advice or have you ever encountered anything like this before? Thank you in advance.

 

[Lasse]

@Humblefish we possibly spotted some Ich on our sailfin tang. If it is Ich, it's very minor right now. Like a total of maybe 5 white spots on his body.
We are unfortunately not set up to QT right now, all our live stock is normally brought to us having already passed through a rigorous QT procedure. And we don't have a hospital tank available. With the lock down, travelling around to try and buy all the stuff needed to set up one of those is out of the question (not too mention the financial impact of that). Are the meds you would recommend us trying in the tank itself while this case is still very mild?

I know your strongly recommend ich eradication, it's just not in the cards for us till things get closer back to normal.
We have basically a FOWLR although we do have one Duncan coral. If we lose some of the inverts like snails and crabs, that's not the end of the world. Hopefully whatever meds we can try don't kill the pistol shrimp or horseshoe crab. But in the end, suppressing the Ich is more important.

I should say I went ahead and ordered from AAP after reading their articles from your meds to keep on hands thread. Ordered the greenex and marine wonder shells. Just didn't know if there's something else we could try that may get here before those do since they couldn't be ordered on Amazon or like Petco/Petsmart for curbside pickup.

Update on this?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jaxteller007]

Update on this?

Sincerely Lasse

I used GreenEx treatment and it seemed to drive it out and we haven't seen it in any of the other fish.
We actually don't have the sailfin anymore. He turned into a bully, even to the foxface. So he went to a bigger home (800 gallon tank) and we have two (soon to be 3 small yellows).

 

[PR_nano]

Hello all, looking for opinion on possible stress related ick. Tank is 7 month with 2 fish, 1 has been in for 3 months and the one with symptoms 6 months. I mentioned stress as I did multiple changes over the weekend which might have contribute. A water change recorded a spike of 2 degrees on Neptune, increased light intensity 2 degrees and longer photoperiod 1hour and lastly turn off wavemaker for 2 nights. I'm currently in an apt and it would be hard to set up a qt.

I was thinking of doing a freshwater dip, get some Parashield (snake oil but can give it a try) and UV. The fish seems normal, active and eating. Additional recommendations are welcome. Thanks in advance.

20 Gallons
Tmp 77.1
Alk 8.1
P03 5
P04 .049
Cal 440
PH 7.72 (This drop to 7.59 the second night I turn off the pump)
Food - Mysis, Reef Riot, Oyster Feast

PS - 1) Temperature raised to 7.85 I keep it at 77, must have accidently hit the dial. 2) Intensity was raised due to Zoa reaching out for light. 3) wavemaker was turn off to see if Nudi went to the aiptasia closer to the pump.

 

[unklez]

@Humblefish lets say my display tank has or had ich and my 3 fish are immune to it. Doesn't that make the ich die out?

 

[Paul B]

Humblefish may be sleeping. Ich will not die out. But if you are lucky it will keep living and keep your fish immune. If the ich dies out, the fish will eventually lose their immunity.

 

[mmorriso]

I'd like to share my perspective based on my (limited) experience to date;

I have had ich despite quite a rigorous QT process. I bit the bullet and went fallow for 100 days. The undertaking was damaging to my reef and its inhabits. I used to regret my decision immensely, although these days I appreciate that I gained a lot of knowledge and experience from the process even though I don't think the fallow period itself was worthwhile.

In my experience, you should treat your tank like it does have ich, whether it does or not. It very likely does.

Feed high quality foods, especially live worms and as much chopped seafood (clams / mussels for me) as is practicable. The joy your fish feel eating worms is especially palpable. Mine act like puppy dogs since I started doing this.

Take all pains to maintain a stress free environment for your fish, including stocking choices. An oversized UV unit has benefits for your tank beyond the impact it may have on parasite populations; I invested in a unit during my fallow period and have been very happy with my decision.

I still QT fish because;

- There are things worse than ich that I don't want to have to deal with.
- I buy most fish online and I'd like the opportunity to observe and treat any other conditions a fish may have before entering my main tank where it is basically impossible to retrieve them from if they do need additional care.

I think I do have ich, despite going fallow, as I do not QT corals and inverts for the full ~75 days. The parasite is insidious and I think that anybody who doesn't do this likely has ich too and is managing it whether they know it or not.

For my part, I felt that if I couldn't at least walk in to a shop, choose a piece of coral and have it in my tank within a month then the hobby would be significantly less enjoyable.