Is Reefing Dying?

[DeepWaterAddict]

This hobby is more diverse and alive than ever. Things move on. A lot of brick and mortar stores have become online retailers. The fact there are these $800 corals actually indicates there's now a much wider range of customers and their needs have to be met, which means that this hobby is growing and developing new tastes. Whether you like it or think it's just purely stupid, keep it to yourself. A coral is of no worth if the market despises of it. A frag can be very expensive if there's enough demand and appreciation for the price. I've seen a person recently calling a vendor here "freaking crazy" for selling a homewrecker frag for $600. The thing is, if you don't like the price you don't have to buy it - you don't even have to look at it. Calling it "stupid" and "crazy" is rather rude and insipid. There are plenty of nice corals with very affordable price tags on them.

 

[Fumanchu]

If anyone in this day and age, where the internet is easily available to compare prices, read reviews of vendors, etc. is stupid enough to pay someone 800$ for a piece of coral just because the seller says its 'RARE' (caps or not) they deserve it what they get. IMHO the original poster is correct - the seller sets a price he is 'willing to take' for the coral. If someone is stupid enough to pay it - the buyer that hasn't done their research. Of course some people are wealthy enough that $800 for a piece of coral doesn't matter. Most 'sheeple'. look for lower prices, not higher prices thats why every business has sales every weekend. If your logic were correct - and not market driven, the coral seller could say 'SUPER RARE' and ask 5000$ for it - but the market wouldn't bear that cost and the price would come down. Of course its supply and demand (thats economics 101)

That's the type of stuff that is wrong experienced Refers s taking advantage of newbies but you know what, your right there has to always be a screwee and a screwer .back in the days everyone wasnt trying to cash out like they are today .. People ask me all the time why dont i make a business out of this if i love it so much and i say no everytime because if i did i wouldnt Be able to enjoy it as much as I do now someone would have to get screwed as part of the business like you said .People used to do it just for the sheer love of it back in the days that's the difference from today and yesterday .20 years ago People had their jobs and this was a hobby that they loved Now the hobby is their job

 

[Palyzoa]

More people should stop paying $500.00 for Ultra Gorilla Fart Mushrooms or $50-$100 a polyp for Unicorn Shart Zoas. Prices will drop and maybe we can get the hobby to a better place for everyone.

Correction - Unicorn Shart Zoas might be worth it...

 

[Newb73]

I have absolutely no problem finding stuff I like in the $35 to $175 range

Usually $200 means I came home with 3 or 4 frags and some fish food.

When your tank is nearly packed with just a few own spaces left.... and everything is growing well and has been for years...and you want to go all out on a couple final show pieces....THSTS when you spend $300+ on a couple extra nice corals.

 

[TMC1313]

t

The problem is ignorance, time management, patience

I think this quote pretty much nails it.
Everyone who gets into this hobby wants a clean, healthy, nice looking reef. I believe the problem starts for the newer hobbyist when something actually goes wrong (and it will) at some point. Problems can run the table anywhere from algae infestations, disease, water quality, lighting, equipment malfunction, you name it. The experienced reefers are good at spotting issues BEFORE they can become bigger issues and take care of them right away. For the newer hobbyist, once a problem is noticed it's usually too late and that problem is then ten fold. I think this is where the reefers that truly love this hobby are willing to gut it out and use the issue as a learning experience get separated from the ones that don't. Hence, the statement I quoted at the top. Does that new reefer have it in them to learn about the problem, have time to take care of the problem and have the patience to wait it out for better times? These days the majority wants instant gratification. That alone will make this hobby not for everybody once they realize the time and dedication it takes to have a thriving reef.

 

[pecan2phat]

I remember when water changes were straight from the tap faucet and a squirt of Novaqua, Eheim canister were the norm with multiple strip fluorescent lighting and Dolomite @ less then $1 per lb

 

[DSC reef]

David Saxby (one of the truly great) always used to say that before accepting advice from somebody make them show you their tank. Too many internet 'experts' dispensing dubious wisdom.

I disagree with this statement. One of the best reefers I know with well over 30 years experience doesn't have a tank at this time. Does his advice mean less because he doesn't have a tank up now to show? Absolutely not.

 

[Greybeard]

I disagree with this statement. One of the best reefers I know with well over 30 years experience doesn't have a tank at this time. Does his advice mean less because he doesn't have a tank up now to show? Absolutely not.

Striking close to home I've been around for a while, very little to show for it at this point. Give me a year and check back

 

[ca1ore]

I disagree with this statement. One of the best reefers I know with well over 30 years experience doesn't have a tank at this time. Does his advice mean less because he doesn't have a tank up now to show? Absolutely not.

Disagree all you want; doesn't change the fact that he said it or that he was/is one of the truly great. You know what though, for every experienced and knowledgeable reefer that's between tanks, there's an army of internet experts dispensing dubious advice. Accepting that there are exceptions to every rule, I'm with Saxby on this.

 

[kris2001]

Hawaii banned exports of fish I heard

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Probably part of it is access to local stores to see aquaria. Now everything is done online. Which to people who are interested in reefing is great - but - it does little to stimulate 'new interest'. People used to walk into a 'pet store' and say - I want that. Now they do not - at least not to the degree they used to. Im not sure that many people 'get out' per se - but are they as many people 'getting in'?

I agree this is a part of it. The LFS have taken a massive hit after the great recession and never recovered while the switch to online shopping continues to kill them. There is nothing like staring at a vibrant colorful reef tank in person to bring new people into the hobby. Coming back to the hobby a few months ago after a few years off it does feel like to me that the hobby is on the decline. I think this is due to several factors:

• Fish parasites and disease. Based on the poll here recently and from my own experience managing LFS, people don't QT and either get lucky or lose a lot of fish either at once or over time. They will only go through so much fish loss before they throw in the towel.
• Cost. It's an incredibly expensive hobby compared to freshwater or keeping other pets like reptiles (last reptile show I went to in Los Angeles was about triple the size if not more than the most recent Reef-A-Palooza). From equipment to livestock the customer is getting price gouged from all sides. The reefing industry is incredibly greedy and runs on a huge margin compared to other industries.
• Steep learning curve. It takes a basic understanding of water chemistry coupled with regular water testing to maintain a reef long term. At the very least you would have to test specific gravity, calc, alk, ph? Either way, this is just more than most people are willing and able to do consistently and accurately. People on this forum, are moderate to advanced hobbyists or on their to way to becoming one and are already above and beyond the average hobbyist out there. So not only is there a good amount of reading required, it also has to be put into practice on a regular basis and this is considered "too much work" for the average Joe.
• The death of the use of Live Rock. Live rock was literally the key that allowed people to successfully keep more difficult coral species in captivity. Some businesses made a big marketing push toward artificial rock and dead rock while the live rock businesses stayed mostly silent while the trend was shifted. I think this was a huge blow to the LFS and to the hobby. Live rock was a popular and profitable product for the LFS to sell. The margin on artificial or dead rock was much smaller and yet the retail price remained the same or higher. It is a bad deal for the LFS and for the hobbyist. Besides that, a reef tank started with dead rock or fake rock has less margin of error and takes much much longer to mature into a thriving ecosystem, this leads to more problems like: algae, dinos, tank crashes, coral losses. A tank started with dead rock will most likely never have even a fraction of the diversity of micro organisms and other fauna that make up a thriving reef.
• The elitist and clique-ish nature of people in the reefing community. We all know R2R is the nice, positive and constructive forum so this doesn't apply here. But what I have observed locally and elsewhere across the web is a different story. At the reptile show I mentioned earlier, people were happy, friendly, and talked my ear off. Both other hobbyists and vendors. I'm not a particularly outgoing person and this is welcome and pleasant for me. At MAX or Reef-A-Palooza no one talks, no one is friendly, people that know each other hang out and it's a very clique-ish scene. The vendors are not outgoing and friendly it's very much just a job for them.
• Hobbyists treating it as a business and not a hobby. Maybe more of an issue here in L.A. but we've got a lot of hobbyists who constantly post FS threads charging full retail for their frags. Many people treat the hobby as a business investment that they want to see a financial return on. One would think everyone would be trading and giving away corals but instead they see a brush of the hand that accidentally broke a piece off a colony as an opportunity for profit. I recently bought a SPS frag from a local hobbyist. He told me that if anything happened to it, he'd replace it. When the coral ended up dying within a few days I took him up on the offer. He asked for a pic for proof and asked about my water and husbandry before making good on his promise. That is not a friendly thing between hobbyists and peers, that is a business transaction. I'm at the point now where I might as well not deal with any local hobbyists and just buy all corals online because the price and experience is nearly identical and I don't have to drive far.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

Back when I started getting into this reefing hobby ... almost everything was affordable including corals with a flat rate of Cdn$40/piece regardless of sizes or colours. SPS were slightly around Cdn$50-55/colony. These were all 100% wild colonies. I was into assorted mushrooms when nobody gave a hoot about it. Yes ... a whole colony was still $40 bucks. Nowadays a booger size so called Bounce mushroom ranges from Cdn$300 - $600++ a bloody frag!! Totally absurd & ridiculous pricing.
All my hardwares are of used items which I've bought from retired hobbyists. I don't trust in all the LED hype except to enhance or saturate my corals colors and just for show only (when we have family gatherings). And I still have my old reliable metal halide system (stored away for rainy days).
"Long termers" like us are very few in between (Toronto) and I just couldn't help but laugh at some comments read from online forum(s). LFS come and go but the reputable ones are still around with their loyal clientele & I've come to know them personally and their families from way back in 2004. They get me stuffs that I request for and we have a very close rapport. I'm witnessing a steep "decline" in online forums activities locally & in Asia to the point of silence ... everything is getting expensive. I don't get trapped by all the marketing hype & sales ... oh no
I get most of my best knowledge & experiences passed unto me from "long termers" & lfs owners ... what is there not to believe or trust when I see corals and fish are thriving in their systems for as long as they have been there all this while. I like to keep this hobby as affordable, simple with less stress & headache AND not get fooled & believe from what I see or read online ... too many distraction and pointless verbal gibberish with no solid evidence to prove otherwise.
I don't sell coral frags but we do personal coral swaps instead. I help out "long termer" babysit their system when they're on vacation and refuse to take anything in return. On a side note ... mud slinging & back stabbing activities are very much still alive behind the scene. Also I've heard of unscrupulous sellers selling their corals to many newbies and out of towners their knock offs corals by labelling them as from one reputable LFS when they're actually not. That ain't cool ... not at all!!
BTW this is only based on Toronto, Canada experience ...

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

It is not the frag prices. IMO, it is the false promises, shilling and advertising by a lot of the newer manufacturers and suppliers combined with the inexperience of all the given advice. There is no secret that when people had a berlin-style tank with 100% known commodity lights, that most people were happy and had far more successes once they got some patience.

Potential and supposition has replaced tried and true. Infomercials have replaced books. Loudest and most persistent internet posters with Dunning-Kruger Effect have replaced experience and knowledge.

Dead/dry rock has caused a lot of bad experiences for people. False promises from LEDs have too. Either are fine, but they were not represented for what they are and this leads to too many failures... those people leave the hobby.

All of this being said, the most harmful thing to this hobby, IMO, is that the truly great will not post anymore since they cannot stand to argue with the thumb-suckers with a few-month-old biocube with boogers on frag plugs. I don't blame them, but it is a shame.

This is well put, agreed on all points.

 

[jda]

Would anybody believe Copps if he logged in and told them that his tank looks better than theirs for X reason? ...the smart ones would, but I think that most would not. Most would say that he had a arrogant and combative tone and was personally attacking them (he is not any of those things, BTW). He might mention that the vast majority of successful reefers do X or Y, but the poster on the other end saw something that was either an outlier or taken out of context and thinks that they can be the exception.

It is a shame, but I don't blame this guy for not posting. There are many, many more in the same boat. There are some that are around a little bit, like Ed, who I hope that people listen to since he has been better at a high level for a decade (or more) than most people will ever get to. What is truly amazing is that if you look at what these very, very experienced people do, they are all very, very similar and are nothing like what you see in an infomercial from a online retailer or at a paid-for-by-a-manufacturer retail store.

This is also a product of 2017, but false-equivalencies are a huge issue online too... the inexperienced think that they are just equivalencies and don't see the false part.

Would anybody love a forum where you had to have 5+ years of demonstrable experience to answer questions (anybody can post)? ...one where you had to provide pictures to a mod or admin and/or be otherwise vetted?

 

[Centerline]

Not getting out I’ve been in over 15+ years just an observation. Just upgraded I’m in for long haul just not inspired lately.

Maybe a few DIY projects or developing a penchant for unique hermit crabs or something will reinvigorate your interest. I just scored a few scoly (after swearing years ago I would never buy a scoly) and they are weird and different enough to have kept me captivated for at least an hour a night fiddling with lighting, aminos and food trying to invoke a strong feeding response at 8 pm rather than 4 am. Maybe order a couple of boxes of Indo tenuis acros and see if you cant find the next Home Wrecker or Walt Disney (and then of course frag and sell the frags for 600 a pop

Here is the best result Ive had so far. Used Coral Frenzy, .25 ml of RedSea Reef Energy A and .25 ml KZ LPS formula.

 

[DSC reef]

Disagree all you want; doesn't change the fact that he said it or that he was/is one of the truly great. You know what though, for every experienced and knowledgeable reefer that's between tanks, there's an army of internet experts dispensing dubious advice. Accepting that there are exceptions to every rule, I'm with Saxby on this.

Lol. I am and will. So when you don't have a tank any more or life happens and you can't have a tank I guess you can't give advice. Makes sense. Saying show me your tank and then I'll listen to your advice is like saying looking at a members profile and assuming they have only been in the hobby since there join date. Great logic there. We can agree to disagree but you might sell yourself short on some great advice from an awesome member just because he or she can't show you there tank. I think for the most part, especially on R2R, people try to honestly help with there knowledge at hand. I just don't think a hobbyist should be discredited of there knowledge due to not having a tank at that time.

 

[revhtree]

If reefing is dying then someone hasn't told our visitors!

We broke a record for registered users being on last week. We also continue to see visitors and new members increase daily.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

If reefing is dying then someone hasn't told our visitors!

We broke a record for registered users being on last week. We also continue to see visitors and new members increase daily.

Honestly speaking this forum has to be the most family oriented, friendly & humorous site ... any bad words from our mouths, Rev's gonna make you repent for your sins!! lol

 

[Greybeard]

Hobbyists treating it as a business and not a hobby. Maybe more of an issue here in L.A. but we've got a lot of hobbyists who constantly post FS threads charging full retail for their frags. Many people treat the hobby as a business investment that they want to see a financial return on. One would think everyone would be trading and giving away corals but instead they see a brush of the hand that accidentally broke a piece off a colony as an opportunity for profit.

Sing it, brother.

My opinions on your other statements vary, but on this one? Amen. I've been giving away coral frags since my very first successful softy tank, and many of the corals I've prized over the years were frags from a local reefer. I've _never_ paid for a frag from a local reefer, and I've never charged for one out of my tank, either. That's how I got started... free frags, and I'm happy to say I've helped start a good many folks off as well. Local clubs are excellent for this... and those really are fading away.

I'm a fan of freedom, in all of it's forms.. it's your coral, you want to charge $20 for a one inch frag freshly glued to a plug? Fine by me, go right ahead, but it won't be me that's buying it... and don't come nosing around my tank looking for handouts, either.

 

[Leaveitalone]

seems like I come on here and there are less and less post and when there are post it’s about getting out. What gives. Is Reefing dead. What’s killing the hobby. I think it’s greed. This hobby is expensive enough but when people start charging $800 for a 1/4” frag that’s when people start going away. Most pieces are common now and have circulated many tanks. So why the need to charge $100 for something common like a setosa or green slimer. With all these mushroom crazes people get crazy with prices. At the end of the day I think greed is killing the hobby. Oh well just my take since there’s nothing else on here to read about might as well stir the pot a bit. Happy Reefing.