Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

[MnFish1]

It's a guessing game, I know that's not the answer many want to hear. But sometimes you just do the best you can, you just can't expect everyone to have your resources or capabilities. Sure I could have pulled the tank apart and put him back into qt, and had a more controlled environment. But you also have to act fast, in my scenario, another day or two and he could have stopped eating. If I wouldn't have waited until I had the time to pull the tank apart, then maybe it's too late. And what about the exposure to other fish. See the perfect scenario is a guy sitting around with all the time in the world and all the necessary resources at his fingertips. I'm happy to expand on what I'm saying so people can get context.

Appreciate your response - I just don't know how to balance the benefit/risk ratio - the risk or under or over treatment - vs the benefit. My guess is that it works sometimes - My second guess is that equally - it does not work - which Is why I was curious to see your results in the experimental section

 

[Tony Thompson]

First, we need to define “stray voltage”. In this case, it is <50 VAC in an ungrounded aquarium. Most often, the culprit of this is simply induced voltage that is only measurable from the tank water to ground as there is no potential in the tank itself.

Many years ago I discussed this with my father at length (also a PhD in electrical engineering). We worked it all out - me on the husbandry side and him with his electrical background, and that’s the conclusion we landed on. He has Alzheimer’s, so I can’t ask him to re-examine the question.

Years later, I made a presentation for him at an IEEE local meeting on electric eels, and this was also discussed - agreement was made there as well. The one thing we did discuss was electric eels and the direct current they produce - the field they produce DOES produce potential based on how much is intersected by nearby fish - tiny tetras can swim right up to the eel, but a 36” pacu would be shocked even from a foot away.
Then, my paper on head and Lateral Line Erosion ruled out “stray voltage” as a cause for that malady (that is the most commonly mentioned result from stray voltage).
There is some evidence, as I said, that electrical shorts can harm fish (and people), but these create potential between items in the tank (two broken wires for example) and I’m not sure that the damage isn’t from electrolysis.
Jay

Thanks Jay, that is much more informative. Appreciate you taking the time. I think the problem with many myths is the tendency to make headlines or sound bites. If the person reading them is not aware or at least appreciative of a wider understanding or context then it can be mis interpreted.

Best wishes to you and your father. I am retired also so no longer up-to-date on my IEEE regs.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Would you include Copper and other medications along with formalin in not causing latent mortality?

The question I posed this morning to my email group was “has anyone heard of, or seen papers on, latent mortality in fish (greater than one year post exposure) for cyanide, copper or formalin. So far, no aquatic vets in the group have seen issues related to this, but I want to wait for some overseas vets to weigh in plus another vet is doing a literature search for me.

Jay

 

[lion king]

Appreciate your response - I just don't know how to balance the benefit/risk ratio - the risk or under or over treatment - vs the benefit. My guess is that it works sometimes - My second guess is that equally - it does not work - which Is why I was curious to see your results in the experimental section

That was the only time I personally had to do that, I know of others that have also been successful. But I know of more than have been unsuccessful. But in a scenario where the fish is already in the display, you can't use the required meds in the water column due to not being reef safe or cost wise in a large tank. What do you do, nothing, then that's guaranteed failure. If you try, then at least it's 50%. If you do nothing you could also give more time for other fish to be affected. If you can't pull them right away, then you have to do something, because doing nothing means absolute death and a possibility of things getting even worse. So that's your choice, what do you do. What do you say to an OP that doesn't have the resources or capability of moving that fish from dt and can't treat in the water column because of a reef or expense, what's your advice.

 

[MnFish1]

That was the only time I personally had to do that, I know of others that have also been successful. But I know of more than have been unsuccessful. But in a scenario where the fish is already in the display, you can't use the required meds in the water column due to not being reef safe or cost wise in a large tank. What do you do, nothing, then that's guaranteed failure. If you try, then at least it's 50%. If you do nothing you could also give more time for other fish to be affected. If you can't pull them right away, then you have to do something, because doing nothing means absolute death and a possibility of things getting even worse. So that's your choice, what do you do. What do you say to an OP that doesn't have the resources or capability of moving that fish from dt and can't treat in the water column because of a reef or expense, what's your advice.

ok- so if I understand you're not a huge advocate of oral dosing?

 

[lion king]

The question I posed this morning to my email group was “has anyone heard of, or seen papers on, latent mortality in fish (greater than one year post exposure) for cyanide, copper or formalin. So far, no aquatic vets in the group have seen issues related to this, but I want to wait for some overseas vets to weigh in plus another vet is doing a literature search for me.

Jay

Why greater than one year, my statements that everyone is so opposed to, has to donwith a year or less, many times right away after or even during exposure. i have a feeling, regardless the species, that most succumb to organ damage injuries before a year's time. I'm not saying every fish exposed will succumb to injuries, just like every human exposed to a toxin or illness will not die, but some do.

 

[lion king]

ok- so if I understand you're not a huge advocate of oral dosing?

No, I'm not, I agree with Jay that it is not accurate. BUT, again, everything is not black and white. SO, what would your advice be in that scenario. Oral dosing also doesn't work when a fish isn't eating. It also doesn't work with the fish I keep that sometimes only eat once or twice a week. You need to get a daily dose even for a chance to work.

 

[brandon429]

The seneye is measuring change in ammonia oxidation stasis = if a system runs it’s full daily bioload at a turnover rate of nh3 .002-.004 present (the majority average reading for all calibrated seneyes on reef tanks) and we dosed peroxide and the levels rose to .05 ppm nh3/ massive drop in efficiency something has harmed the bacteria running the filter

but if a .004 ppm nh3 system suddenly goes to .001 after dosing one mil per ten gallons and then rebounds back to normal, within the normal degradation window of peroxide dosed into a reef tank (4 hours) then for that interval a boost / gain of efficiency was observed.

this is what seneyes show

it doesn’t mean it’s an open and shut case, but measurements directly opposing Api ammonia arent factored in the statements of harm to biofilter bacteria by peroxide. We need more research to call it harmful, these reef tank bacteria are shielded in their own biofilm plus the total organic reef tank loading is very neutralizing to doses of peroxide rather quickly if the ORP rise/drop intervals mean anything.



Im talking common dose 1-3 mils per ten gallons, not gross overdoses

I also believe that quarantine or sparse holding systems for fish excluding live rock and sand could be harmed by peroxide; less protective insulation than how a reef tank presents

I think peroxide doesn’t harm reef tank filter bacteria but may harm quarantine filter bacteria due to opposing states of organic loading between the two systems and vastly different surface area redundancy

 

[Flame2hawk]

No, I'm not, I agree with Jay that it is not accurate. BUT, again, everything is not black and white. SO, what would your advice be in that scenario. Oral dosing also doesn't work when a fish isn't eating. It also doesn't work with the fish I keep that sometimes only eat once or twice a week. You need to get a daily dose even for a chance to work.

Ive had some success with oral dosing when it was imperative to quickly get meds to the gut (ie uromena, internal parasites, even mouth fungus). The question is whether i messed up internal organs….hope not.

 

[lion king]

Ive had some success with oral dosing when it was imperative to quickly get meds to the gut (ie uromena, internal parasites, even mouth fungus). The question is whether i messed up internal organs….hope not.

Do you have long term success with fish that you have treated with these methods, and what meds are we talking. While most of my experience is going to be with general cure, praziquantel, or metronidazole in the water column; I have never seen any decrease in immune response or lifespan with any species I used these products on. I can't say the same for copper, formalin, or antibiotics.

 

[MnFish1]

The seneye is measuring change in ammonia oxidation stasis = if a system runs it’s full daily bioload at a turnover rate of nh3 .002-.004 present (the majority average reading for all calibrated seneyes on reef tanks) and we dosed peroxide and the levels rose to .05 ppm nh3/ massive drop in efficiency something has harmed the bacteria running the filter

but if a .004 ppm nh3 system suddenly goes to .001 after dosing one mil per ten gallons and then rebounds back to normal, within the normal degradation window of peroxide dosed into a reef tank (4 hours) then for that interval a boost / gain of efficiency was observed.

this is what seneyes show

it doesn’t mean it’s an open and shut case, but measurements directly opposing Api ammonia arent factored in the statements of harm to biofilter bacteria by peroxide. We need more research to call it harmful, these reef tank bacteria are shielded in their own biofilm plus the total organic reef tank loading is very neutralizing to doses of peroxide rather quickly if the ORP rise/drop intervals mean anything.



Im talking common dose 1-3 mils per ten gallons, not gross overdoses

I also believe that quarantine or sparse holding systems for fish excluding live rock and sand could be harmed by peroxide; less protective insulation than how a reef tank presents

I think peroxide doesn’t harm reef tank filter bacteria but may harm quarantine filter bacteria due to opposing states of organic loading between the two systems and vastly different surface area redundancy

Few care or mention the Seneye - and in the case we're talking about - I don't get the connection? The question seemed to be - does the amount of peroxide mentioned kill disease causing organisms. Not whether some minuscule dose of peroxide can be added to a tank - there is clear literature/commentary vis a vis the oxydator.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have long term success with fish that you have treated with these methods, and what meds are we talking. While most of my experience is going to be with general cure, praziquantel, or metronidazole in the water column; I have never seen any decrease in immune response or lifespan with any species I used these products on. I can't say the same for copper, formalin, or antibiotics.

Most quarantined fish do not die within a year, etc. All of my current fish (3 tangs - a harlequin tusk and a clown) - were quarantined with Copper - followed by Praziquental - all are alive 5 years later. Minimum.

 

[lion king]

Most quarantined fish do not die within a year, etc. All of my current fish (3 tangs - a harlequin tusk and a clown) - were quarantined with Copper - followed by Praziquental - all are alive 5 years later. Minimum.

I mean from oral dosing, I'm sure in that case you would be more concerned of what injury might occur in an overdose situation. What meds do you use in oral dosing and have you seen any negative long term impacts.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I've sent hundreds of fish out for histopathology, it is NOT the use of copper years prior that causes the liver damage in these predatory fish. It is hepatic lipidosis and that is diet-related. Nobody has a really good handle on that - it isn't solely due to over-feeding, or improper HUFA profile, or lack of thiamin/vitamin E, probably is a combination of all factors.

Metro+focus works, but ONLY if you dose it correctly - 0.50% metro by weight in the food. If you don't know the concentration of the drug, don't use it. You wouldn't add an unknown amount of a drug to your tank water, why would you do that in their food?

Jay

Have you read this paper Jay? DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.2.30194.45767

I think it is interesting that it was observed over 85% of "Wild Collected" P volitans showed signs of fatty liver disease. As no intrusive examination is plausible before the animals enter our aquariums maybe a conclusion of pathology results of long term captive specimens is compromised by discounting the previous condition of the animal before it entered captivity.

I am also aware of the suggested role of vitamin E and its antioxidant properties with regards Lipoid liver disease, steatitis and myocyte degeneration.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Have you read this paper Jay? DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.2.30194.45767

I think it is interesting that it was observed over 85% of "Wild Collected" P volitans showed signs of fatty liver disease. As no intrusive examination is plausible before the animals enter our aquariums maybe a conclusion of pathology results of long term captive specimens is compromised by discounting the previous condition of the animal before it entered captivity.

I am also aware of the suggested role of vitamin E and its antioxidant properties with regards Lipoid liver disease, steatitis and myocyte degeneration.

Your link didn’t work, but I presume it’s the paper by the NC aquarium?
Jay

 

[Tony Thompson]

Your link didn’t work, but I presume it’s the paper by the NC aquarium?
Jay

Its on ResearchGate

PARASITISM AND FATTY LIVER DISEASE IN THE INVASIVE RED LIONFISH, PTEROIS VOLITANS (LINNAEUS) ALONG THE GULF OF MEXICO​

• Thesis for: Master of Science
• Advisor: Dr. Autumn Smith-Herron
• Danielle Fails
  Bethyl Laboratories
  
  
  
  
  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339178908_PARASITISM_AND_FATTY_LIVER_DISEASE_IN_THE_INVASIVE_RED_LIONFISH_PTEROIS_VOLITANS_LINNAEUS_ALONG_THE_GULF_OF_MEXICO

 

[areefer01]

Your link didn’t work, but I presume it’s the paper by the NC aquarium?
Jay

Edit: removed as Mr. Thompson replied.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Edit: removed as Mr. Thompson replied.

I thought you might be referring to this paper:

Comparison of Whole Blood Fatty Acid Profiles between Lionfish (Pterois spp.) in Wild and Managed Care Environments

Suboptimal nutrition may contribute to lionfish (Pterois volitans and Pterois miles) health issues in managed care environments. This study’s objective was to establish and compare whole blood fatty acid profiles in wild and aquarium lionfish. Whole blood samples were dried onto specialized...

www.mdpi.com

Can you summarize the thesis for me? I have the grandson tonight, and I'm just not able to synthesize that much data (grin). I did notice that she referenced my 2015 fish disease book multiple times. I've updated that material since then, here is the current text from the 2023 edition:

Fatty liver disease (Hepatic lipidosis)
A major chronic health problem facing most long-term captive fishes is “fatty liver disease,” or liver degeneration. Fish do not assimilate fats well, so often, if a fish's diet is too high in fat, it will then be deposited in various tissues, especially the liver. Unlike with mammals, this fat is not readily usable during times of starvation. Even if food is withheld from a fat-laden fish, very little of the fat is ever reconverted into usable energy. Some fish do not show outward signs of obesity, especially sedentary species such as groupers and lionfish. In these, fatty liver disease may only be diagnosed after death, when sections of the liver will show oil droplets and pieces of the liver itself will float in sea water. With many animals, a period of acute anorexia can cause liver damage.

Fatty liver disease is most common in adult fish whose growth rate has slowed considerably. Younger fish tend to grow fast enough to minimize fat deposition—excess calories are turned into muscle tissue instead. With long-term captive fish, fatty liver disease is the leading cause of (or contributor to) death. Virtually every lionfish held in captivity longer than three years will show evidence of fatty liver disease upon necropsy.

What techniques are available to solve this problem? Nothing can be done for a fish once fatty liver disease has become evident. Prevention is the only course of action an aquarist can take. Simply putting the fish on a "diet" may not work, in that this may result in increased aggression towards other fish in the aquarium. The best solution is to avoid feeding herbivores diets high in meat proteins and to train carnivores to feed on low-protein, low-fat diets such as squid or gelatin diet. Also, avoid feeding any saturated fats to fish. Overall dietary fat levels should be less than 16% in actively growing fish and less than 9% in adult fish.

Vitamin E supplementation is often used in an attempt to prevent fatty liver disease and liver degeneration, which is one of the top chronic health problems of captive fishes. Even with vitamin E supplementation you can still see fatty liver disease issues, either due to vitamin E depletion as a result of feeding slightly rancid (peroxide containing) feeds, or because other aspects of the fatty acid metabolism incorrect, such as feeding cold water fish species to tropical fishes.

There has also been a theory that feeding freshwater fish to predatory marine fish will cause malnutrition and fatty liver disease. Most of the rationale behind this has to do with slightly different fat profiles between marine and freshwater prey fish species. Credence is given to the theory when so many marine aquarists report that they lost their lionfish to liver degeneration after feeding them live freshwater goldfish (See the next section for an alternative hypothesis regarding issues with feeder goldfish). In reality, they would have run into the same trouble had they fed any single fish species as a diet for their lionfish. Feeding carnivores too frequently can also cause fatty liver disease. The general recommendation is to feed larger carnivores only twice a week.


Jay

 

[Tony Thompson]

I thought you might be referring to this paper:

Comparison of Whole Blood Fatty Acid Profiles between Lionfish (Pterois spp.) in Wild and Managed Care Environments

Suboptimal nutrition may contribute to lionfish (Pterois volitans and Pterois miles) health issues in managed care environments. This study’s objective was to establish and compare whole blood fatty acid profiles in wild and aquarium lionfish. Whole blood samples were dried onto specialized...

www.mdpi.com

Can you summarize the thesis for me? I have the grandson tonight, and I'm just not able to synthesize that much data (grin). I did notice that she referenced my 2015 fish disease book multiple times. I've updated that material since then, here is the current text from the 2023 edition:

Its late here Jay, 1:40 AM

I am aware of your work as cited, and use this myself as a point of reference in my own exploration of nutrition within the 5 kingdoms of aquatic animal welfare. I felt this baseline study may provide an holistic view of the subject.

Have a good evening and enjoy the time with your grandson.

Tony.

 

[Pankney72]

You mean something like this, still waiting for someone to take me up on the challenges I've given here for years. Check it out for yourself and show me the survivors living happily years later.

naw... I mean something more like this. On gross you could probably see fibrosis, but you wouldn't see copper granules without special tissue staining and a strong microscope.

Gross examination can only tell us so much. I 100% believe that you have spent a lot of time thinking about this subject, but honestly the only thing I can say from your picture is that there's a dead fish in the background. Otherwise it's kinda a "post hoc ergo ad hoc" sort of problem where you can say anything the fish experienced years ago is the cause of death.

But more importantly the liver is typically super charged in terms of it's ability to regenerate. If it doesn't kill you straight off, liver damage usually needs to be a chronic insult to cause health problems... but I've been wrong before. If data comes out that says I'm idiot, I'll recant and apologize. For now, I'm siding with the guy who has sent the liver out for professional analysis.