Peroxide only reef ?

[DCR]

What I wrote was exactly correct, but let's be sure we are agreeing on what scenario we are discussing before making additional claims about who was wrong. I think we are now saying the same thing with different word choices.

Henry's Law makes it clear that only the partial pressure of the gas involved determine how much dissolves. The amount of other gases present does not factor in.

"Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount of dissolved gas in a liquid is directly proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid. "

Henry's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thus, if the partial pressure of oxygen above seawater is about 0.2 atmospheres (normal O2 content), then the amount of O2 that dissolves is around 7 ppm.

What does not matter is how much N2 happens to be present. if the N2 is 0 atmospheres, 0.8 atmospheres (normal air) or 10 atmospheres (under substantial pressure), the amount of O2 that dissolves is the same. The N2 DOES NOT compete with the O2 for space.

If we agree on that basic tenant of gas laws, then we have no further disagreement.

But when you stated:

"Also keep in mind that you are providing pure oxygen with peroxide rather than 21% with air so it does not have to compete with nitrogen for solubility in water."

I was focusing on the word "compete", which literally is not what happens. O2 is not competing with N2 for space, it is just that the pressure of O2 is not 1 full atmosphere.

Again, if we agree on that we are all good to go.

The reason I an drilling in on this is because there are many other situations where solubility of one thing impacts another for a variety of different reasons, and these things periodically come up in chemistry forum discussions about things like dosing solutions and what can and cannot be combined (e.g., vodka in kalkwasser).

I don't disagree with anything in your post so I would say we agree, but the bottom line is that if you are injecting pure oxygen into a body of water you are going to get significantly more dissolved oxygen than if you are injecting just air, and that is a benefit of using hydrogen peroxide. "Compete" is probably not the best technical term but the presence of nitrogen in the air does reduce the dissolved oxygen in water by reducing the partial pressure of the oxygen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't disagree with anything in your post so I would say we agree, but the bottom line is that if you are injecting pure oxygen into a body of water you are going to get significantly more dissolved oxygen than if you are injecting just air, and that is a benefit of using hydrogen peroxide. "Compete" is probably not the best technical term but the presence of nitrogen in the air does reduce the dissolved oxygen in water by reducing the partial pressure of the oxygen.

Agreed except perhaps the last sentence. Take away the N2, O2 doesn’t rise.

 

[Lasse]

Take away the N2, O2 doesn’t rise.

A truth with some limitation - use one of these to take away the N2 and you get around 95 % pure Oxygen. from a partial pressure rate of 20/80 it will be 95/5
But yes - I understand what you mean - replace it with another gas in the same ratio (80/20) and the partial pressure of O2 will not change. But if you only take away N2 - the reminded "air" will rise oxygens partial pressure with the same percent as per cent removed N2

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A truth with some limitation - use one of these to take away the N2 and you get around 95 % pure Oxygen. from a partial pressure rate of 20/80 it will be 95/5
But yes - I understand what you mean - replace it with another gas in the same ratio (80/20) and the partial pressure of O2 will not change. But if you only take away N2 - the reminded "air" will rise oxygens partial pressure with the same percent as per cent removed N2

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, true, the remaining O2 can compress into a smaller space giving a higher partial pressure,

 

[DCR]

But that is the whole point. If I somehow added some other non-condensable gas like Argon to maintain the 20% oxygen or created a vacuum of 0.2 atm so that the oxygen partial pressure was still at 0.2 atm, then the oxygen concentration in the water would not rise as you say. But at atmospheric pressure, the partial pressure of pure oxygen will be almost 1.0 atm and the dissolved oxygen concentration in the water at equilibrium will rise by roughly 5 times what it was in equilibrium with air.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m going to stop debating this topic. I only wanted to point out that N2 and O2 do not compete for space in water, unlike so many other reefing chemical scenarios we deal with. That was my only point and we agreed on it.

 

[vingallo]

what has this thread morphed into
utter lost at this stage
I just wanted to know if my idea of a peroxide + flow only tank would give make my ultra low maintenance dream come true.

anyone ?

PS: yup will go down the rabbit hole tangents discussed at a later date as it is interesting.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

what has this thread morphed into
utter lost at this stage
I just wanted to know if my idea of a peroxide + flow only tank would give make my ultra low maintenance dream come true.

anyone ?

PS: yup will go down the rabbit hole tangents discussed at a later date as it is interesting.

Threads often twist and turn away from the starting point when they touch on complicated issues or points of debate between reefers.

Questions as seemingly simply as are water changes useful can go many pages and hit many topics that relate to the original question.

 

[MnFish1]

That is really not bad advice However in my experience, I would need either a very large fuge or an export vessel that grows VERY rapidly which = a lot of trimming = maintenance. I really believe that most fuges are either too much work, if they grow at the right pace, or are undersized as they sit in small portions of sumps beneath a tank. Otherwise you are not wrong and it is good advice to get to "low-er" maintenance.

There will still be P (Phosphorous) in the water in some form. It will not be removed or lowered by Ozone or H2O2

 

[MnFish1]

what has this thread morphed into
utter lost at this stage
I just wanted to know if my idea of a peroxide + flow only tank would give make my ultra low maintenance dream come true.

anyone ?

PS: yup will go down the rabbit hole tangents discussed at a later date as it is interesting.

Your idea will not work.

 

[MnFish1]

It is nice to dream of a tank the runs off of nothing but flow and peroxide or ozone, based on the articles above there is a multitude of reasons why this dream is unlikely to be a reality.

The youtuber I referenced -> has achieved precisely what I am speaking of with Ozone contrary to the science in the articles linked, my curiosity was if the same may be achieved with Peroxide only. His deployment of Ozone is innovative, it is an elegant solution to flow + ozone delivery.

I am not saying he is wrong nor that the science is bogus, but it is interesting to consider why his long running reef works. It shouldn't based on the readings linked previously but it does, the why is the interesting bit as is the bit about replicating this with peroxide hence the reason for my post.

What a rabbit hole.

Because he has a lot of soft corals that take up waste from the water. The Zooxanthellae in coral can use some of the organic waste from the coral. he has a ton of coral and very few (that I can see - fish. its a low waste system

 

[vingallo]

Update from the gentleman who has experimented with peroxide and ozone. It is the singular data point of real world use. Worth a look:

I do not understand the criticism of his reef, to me it is beautiful and cleverly engineered. The type of reef you can really enjoy and quite little maintenance.

The stock list may not be your flavor, but let's hold off on judgment, after all he has a true natural mixed reef. Don't let the non-blue lit tank fool you, there are SPS, LPS, and softies present.

 

[a.t.t.r]

what has this thread morphed into
utter lost at this stage
I just wanted to know if my idea of a peroxide + flow only tank would give make my ultra low maintenance dream come true.

anyone ?

PS: yup will go down the rabbit hole tangents discussed at a later date as it is interesting.

Peroxide will have 0 long term impact.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Update from the gentleman who has experimented with peroxide and ozone. It is the singular data point of real world use. Worth a look:

I do not understand the criticism of his reef, to me it is beautiful and cleverly engineered. The type of reef you can really enjoy and quite little maintenance.

The stock list may not be your flavor, but let's hold off on judgment, after all he has a true natural mixed reef. Don't let the non-blue lit tank fool you, there are SPS, LPS, and softies present.

His success has nothing to do with what he adds ozone or peroxide. The tank is all softies. It is literally a filter.

 

[MoshJosh]

Update from the gentleman who has experimented with peroxide and ozone. It is the singular data point of real world use. Worth a look:

I do not understand the criticism of his reef, to me it is beautiful and cleverly engineered. The type of reef you can really enjoy and quite little maintenance.

The stock list may not be your flavor, but let's hold off on judgment, after all he has a true natural mixed reef. Don't let the non-blue lit tank fool you, there are SPS, LPS, and softies present.

I think what people are trying to say is this person appears to have pretty low maintenance tank as is. If you are wanting low maintenance tank you can set one up without much fuss as long as you stock it appropriately, no peroxide needed.

 

[vingallo]

I think what people are trying to say is this person appears to have pretty low maintenance tank as is. If you are wanting low maintenance tank you can set one up without much fuss as long as you stock it appropriately, no peroxide needed.

He does have it stocked with SPS despite being softy dominated. Are you referring to the low fish stock or something else ?

 

[MoshJosh]

He does have it stocked with SPS despite being softy dominated. Are you referring to the low fish stock or something else ?

Both. What SPS and in what ratio to softies?

Also, looks like he is running a pretty deep sand bed which may offer some denitrification.

Also, also, title says algae bloom, was he specifically dosing for a bloom in the water columb. . . sorry no volume on this computer.

 

[rtparty]

Spoiler alert: the tank looked way better AFTER he did some water changes.

I’m glad it’s “working” for him but he doesn’t understand what is happening and why. He also better be super careful carbon dosing with this type of setup. Could be fine, could suffocate and kill everything

 

[MnFish1]

He does have it stocked with SPS despite being softy dominated. Are you referring to the low fish stock or something else ?

The low fish stocking.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Crazy idea inspired by some videos I have seen of one person running ozone only filtration successfully.

The idea:
-90 Gallon corner tank mixed reef
-Softy/LPS dominated w/ few fish
-1 pound per gallon LR, 4 inch sand bed,
-lots of Flow,
-Triton system dosing.
-Zero Sump, Zero mechanical filtration, Zero Skimmer,
-Weekly water changes from start tapering back over first 2 years as tank matures with goal to eventually get to Zero water changes.
-Hydrogen Peroxide dosing 2ml per 10 Gallons or 18ml daily

The idea is to achieve a truly ultra low maintenance system.

I know this very outside of the norm, but it is something I have been considering for a while now and would love to have some input from experienced reefers, folks who have achieved ultra low maintenance or who have experience with peroxide/ozone.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

How has the tank turned out? I am curious if you noticed anything interesting while trying this.